Alcohol vs Psychadelics in terms of harmful effects?

[strumf]

This may sound a bit of a stupid question but basically when I did some research on the topic in most cases the bad effects of alcohol are well documented in terms of long term harmful effects to health while for psychadelics in general there is hardly any information of what it may do or harm if used often (say onece ever 1-2 weeks). In some large university book which to my surprise contained nearly every psychadelic when it comes to harmful effects or negative stuff it is always associated with the onset stuff like nausea and vomitting and during the effects eg. paranoia, hallucinations. Maybe the only one is flashbacks but that is not so bad (in my opinion at least).

Now the reason I am questioning this is that besides the known bad effects of alcohol to me personally it is much worse eg. no good work the next day, feeling bad, harder control of thoughts etc. etc. I have heard that some seeds when eaten are toxic to the liver but so is alcohol ... but to what extent. Now the question is say would it be "better" for you to eat some 'seeds' (arg nerv, rue) on a weekend instead of drinking a decent amount of alcohol (eg. 8-10 beers). Now i am not saying that to go to parties one should do one or the other but you know every so often one gets the need to alternate and for me the fun produced by the natural occuring stuff is way better in all ways than alcohol (perhaps not for socializing purposes, but then again you may spill some sensitive information).

Is anyone aware on any documentation on this topic or at least on more detailed bad or long term effects of psychadelics (if there are any) as I have never found any decent infomation. Even the hospital guide did not really say much about the bad effect except for onset and duration aspects (which I am sure for the experienced ones it is not even bad). The only thing it said is that it MAY affect memory. I have looked at the erowid website which to my knowledge is the greates source of information but I still did not find something specific to longterm effects in that large sea of knowledge.

From another train of thought, sometimes a small amount of arg nerv (1-3) may even help me with work due to the extra focus, awareness and silenting of desires and actually I am at a time where such effects are highly sought after. However, it would not be worth it as a trade off for good health. So if anyone is aware of any good sorce of information on this or anything at all please let me know. It would be highly appreciated.

[Serpent]

Well as far as memory is concerned for the short term. I have pretty bad short term, but during the after glow state (3-7days for me) my short term dramatically increases. ??

J.

[Vertmorpheus]

What is given with one hand is often taken with the other ;) Nothing is for free....

[apothecary]

What Vert said.

I know of no psychoactive substance that does not have detrimental physical or mental effects with frequent use.

Even Kava causes itchy skin.

[Ace]

In some large university book which to my surprise contained nearly every psychadelic when it comes to harmful effects or negative stuff it is always associated with the onset stuff like nausea and vomitting and during the effects eg. paranoia, hallucinations. Maybe the only one is flashbacks but that is not so bad (in my opinion at least).

I would not overlook the effects of mental health issues that may/not arise from frequent use of psychs. Anxiety attacks (well after stopping use) can be very debilitating for an individual and if you think that they arent a big issue then you havent experienced one. Mental health issues are probably one of the biggest issues for the psychs. Every drug has an individual effect on the body and brain.

I vaguely remember someone saying that psilocybin/psilocin can also have a negative effect on either the liver or kidneys (cant quite remember) - no doubt there would be a few things to look into but finding info on psychs is always difficult because they are so unpopular with mainstream culture. Of course there is plenty of info on alcohol/cannabis because they are very commonly used and have been for millenia across the globe. Unfortunately the window of popularity for psychs was only short lived in the western world (mainly thru the 60s and 70s), which is where most of this research usually takes place, so the real interest in researching its negative effects was also rather short lived.

It might also be worth noting that a lot of shamans and curanderos live to a very ripe old age even with frequent use. Maria Sabina is a good example of this. But you might also note the tools they used - there arent too many shamans who use acid or other man made drugs, only el naturale - but the natural vs synthetic debate is a touchy one, tho also ties in quite interestingly with this.

I'm sure there'd be a bit of info if one digs deep enough

[Peyofox]

Anxiety attacks (well after stopping use) can be very debilitating for an individual and if you think that they arent a big issue then you havent experienced one. Mental health issues are probably one of the biggest issues for the psychs. Every drug has an individual effect on the body and brain.

I vaguely remember someone saying that psilocybin/psilocin can also have a negative effect on either the liver or kidneys (cant quite remember)

Yep, anxiety/panic attacks are no fun at all, I have had to deal with it almost daily for years without the use of psychs.

I'm no expert on the matter, but I always thought psilocybin/psilocin had little or no impact on the liver (remember reading it somewhere), not sure about the kidneys though.

Edited October 7, 2007 by ReclusE

[incognito]

im a non-drinker. for the reason that hangovers slay me, and i have never been able to drink and then just pass out when i get home. I stay awake having anxiety attack after anxiety attack, then have to deal with a hangover in a depressed /anxious state.

I think its a good thing as all the males in my family have been aggressive drunks that have caused alot of harm.

I like psychadelics as i feel great the next day, have undergone healing, received great insight intomyself and my surroundings and have had alot of questions answered that otherwise i was grappling with, exuding alot of energy thats needed elsewhere, and the psycs tell me where to direct it.

Its really fuct up that legally u can drink urself to oblivion or smoke urself to cancer, wheras if u want to do something that u think is beneficial for yourself ur the scum of society.

[Mycot]

The reason that there is little information on longterm negative effects of psychedelics is that they dont exist in any universal sense.

Individuals are different and some may experience problems due to unwise use or other reasons.

The longterm safety of psychedelics is amply demonstrated by those cultures that have been using them for millenia.

[ballzac]

I pretty much agree with what most people have said. It's a shame there isn't more information out there, but it's difficult to study these drugs with the legality issues and the stigma associated with them.

I would certainly avoid Argyrea nervosa. There are other seeds from the convolvulaceae family that are much safer and much more pleasant, although I think they are all a bit iffy. I would say LSD and tryptamines (DMT, mushrooms, etc.) are the safest, with LSD at the top. I'm not sure about mescaline. A. nervosa constricts blood vessels...I hate to think what that does to the brain.

Mycot, I wouldn't be so confident in your assumptions. Firstly, in talking about psychedelics we are lumping a wide range of wildly different chemicals under one name, and I think it is fallacious to say that none are inherently damaging to the body (particularly A. nervosa which, as far as I know, has no traditional history). Many of the cultures that used some of these plants traditionally had life expectencies of about 40, so I don't think the fact that these cultures used psychedelics proves that they do not cause neurological problems at the age of 60, or liver and kidney failure at the age of 70.

The fact is that there is still not much information out there. There is a fair bit about lsd and also some about mescaline and mushrooms, but in general, WE are the guinea pigs.

[MORG]

I would say LSD and tryptamines (DMT, mushrooms, etc.) are the safest, with LSD at the top. I'm not sure about mescaline.

Are you basing your harm-rankings on reading, research etc. or just an all-round hunch? I'm not trying to have a go at what you've said, just trying to interpret it. I would have put LSD below both of those tryptamines, but not for any excellent, well-researched reason, just my overall impression.

Many of the cultures that used some of these plants traditionally had life expectencies of about 40, so I don't think the fact that these cultures used psychedelics proves that they do not cause neurological problems at the age of 60, or liver and kidney failure at the age of 70.

Good point. Not to mention the fact that if a "shaman" of whatever description were to go a bit mental from overusing a substance nobody would mind. The shaman's special place in society allows freedom to go a bit loopy, in fact it'd probably just make him seem more mystical.

I agree with Vertemorpheus' point. Everything comes at a cost. I only wish I could be better informed about those costs in order for myself to minimise risk. We are the guinea pigs and that's why communication (like that which occurs on this forum) is so important, it's the only way "data" gets "collated".

[mu!]

The shaman's special place in society allows freedom to go a bit loopy, in fact it'd probably just make him seem more mystical.

In said society, there is still quite a distinction between crazy people and the shamans.

[ballzac]

Are you basing your harm-rankings on reading, research etc. or just an all-round hunch? I'm not trying to have a go at what you've said, just trying to interpret it. I would have put LSD below both of those tryptamines, but not for any excellent, well-researched reason, just my overall impression.

A bit of both. LSD is the most widely researched psychedelic, and it's still considered to be essentially harmless. I know while on LSD there can be a bit of a tense, speedy feeling, but apart from temporarily raising blood pressure and things like that, I can't see that that aspect does a lot of harm. Mushrooms and LSA have tendency to make one feel naseous, and to urinate profusely (both signs that the body is trying to flush the chemicals out). They can both cause muscle weakness and spasms (the heart is a muscle ). Then there's the fact that lsd is one chemical. I think when you're having several chemical in a plant, the chances of something doing harm are greater.

Also, I personally find that I seem a bit more retarded on the latter two. On LSD I can still do simple calculations like adding up change to buy something etc. On high doses of mushies and even more so on LSA, I find this stuff very difficult. It may just be another aspect of tripping, but I sort of feel like maybe the blood supply to my brain's a bit cut off or something. Not to mention that I've never gotten even the slightest headache from LSD, whereas with LSA and mushies I get mega-headaches. On higher doses of mushies and LSA, I really feel like they are doing me a bit of damage, as all of the negative physical effects are magnified. On LSD, I can take as much as I like, and it may be a terrifying psychological experience, but the only physical problem I've ever had is that it exaserbates my back pain from all the tension it causes.

So yeah, I guess it is mainly a hunch, but I think it's kind of an educated hunch. I could be wrong, but I'm happy enough about my conclusions that I will base my actions on them.

[strumf]

Mushrooms and LSA have tendency to make one feel naseous, and to urinate profusely (both signs that the body is trying to flush the chemicals out). They can both cause muscle weakness and spasms (the heart is a muscle ).

I always thought it was better to stick to naturals than to synthetic psychadelics but all these posts are definately all saying otherwise. Even when you say that lsa makes you urinate frequently it seems to happen as soon as you even have a small drink while otherwise it may happen only at the start. I once heard a funny theory from some guy that likes to take these things as he feels that it clears his body from the all the bad stuff through heaps of vomiting. Then when you look at the way in which som ant-oxidants work it is similar. For example to get rid of the toxins from your body that enter your body in daily life it is recommended that you have drinks or stuff that makes you urinate quite often. Of course your reply would be that it is the toxins that you have taken in through the lsa or muchrooms that the body is getting rid of and not daily toxins.

The information that you gave that lsa (A. nervosa) constricts blood vessels sounds quite bad. Where is this information from and I am assuming it is only for the duration. I have read somewhere that it can cause hart failure by too many fast beats if consumed in large quantities. The main reason for my concern is that I have quite frequently used A.nervosa while lsd is quite hard for me to obtain. I quite like the feelings of A. nervosa and quite used to some onset headache or nausea but this info is definately making me worried. I guess taking a couple of seeds every two days would be equally bad as consuming it once in large quantities. What about peganum harmala as I have a few times mixed it with A.nervosa and it is quite a great experience.

I guess one could ask many questions but as everyone says in these posts the harmful effects are poorly documented. Well thanks everyone for some useful information here. I think it will result in a great reduction of my 'naturals' intake :-(. I thought there could be some antidotes like withania somnifera, cats claw and all those health benficial teas that if you take a break every few weeks and drink all the healthy stuff and many antioxidant teas it will be ok.

[ballzac]

The information that you gave that lsa (A. nervosa) constricts blood vessels sounds quite bad. Where is this information from and I am assuming it is only for the duration.

Google vasoconstriction and HBWR. This effect is quite well known.

The main reason for my concern is that I have quite frequently used A.nervosa while lsd is quite hard for me to obtain.

Transdimentional has some Rivea Corymbosa seeds (ololiuqui) available for sale cheaply in the trading forum. They may not be as harmless as LSD, but they're much safer than HBWR. I wouldn't go anywhere near HBWR.

[ajna]

it's interesting, i would have more likely sided with Morg on that one. in short term, the muscle cramps and back pain from acid seems worse to me than the slight nausea from mush. purity may be an issue with lsd, i know a lot go by the "lsd is lsd" rule, but the reports of side effects from people with a 'dirty' batch correlate quite well with what one might expect from unknown ergot derivatives (ie muscle convulsions, back pain).

and its true you dont know exactly what you are ingesting when eating whole plants, but it may be just as likely to find detoxifying, synergistic compounds as it would compounds that increase toxicity.

i remember reading a while back that lsd/psilocybin were metabolised within 3 hours of ingestion; can anyone confirm/deny this? if this is so, then the effects felt after that duration could be seen as the persistent psychological effects that were catalysed. mush peak is usually over by then, but acid is still right up there and effects lasts a lot longer than the active substance does in the body. this persistence could be alarm-worthy when considering possible long term effects, if this really is the case

but with either lsd or mush, i wouldn't be overly concerned about physical damage, especially if you dont mind knocking back a few coffees from time to time. psychologically is where the big changes take place and where i feel you'll get caught out if anywhere. these types of effects are hard to document though, there's so many variable to consider with set/setting and all that jazz, not to mention the different cultural perceptions of conditions like depression/mania/anxiety/schizophrenia/etc, and lack of understanding of what might trigger and cure some of these.

so...take care, guinea pigs! :D

[MORG]

psychologically is where the big changes take place and where i feel you'll get caught out if anywhere. these types of effects are hard to document though, there's so many variable to consider with set/setting and all that jazz, not to mention the different cultural perceptions of conditions like depression/mania/anxiety/schizophrenia/etc, and lack of understanding of what might trigger and cure some of these.

That's what I was thinking when I said I felt LSD was more dangerous. It's known to be able to encourage onset of psychological disorders in those already susceptible. I didn't want to say much though because I can't be sure my attitude is not indoctrination by government scare-campaigns and horror-story anecdotes received as a teenager. I haven't read enough real data to know any better.

And the 'natural' vs 'synthetic' dichotomy... well it's a whole other thread but like most other simple dichotomies... shades of grey.

[ballzac]

The reason I figure lsd as better than mushrooms, is that I often go for high doses, and I know that the physical side of lsd does not get much worse as you multiply the dose, but one does need to be mindful of posture and involuntary tension and also avoid staying up all night (trip in the morning) etc. to avoid back pain. When you use high doses of mushrooms however, the sickness can be almost unbearable, and I've have times where I can't walk because my legs are either paralysed or spasming, and I can't talk for the same reason but happening in my mouth instead. With Lsa, I've had trips that I would say were quite mild if I measure them against a good acid trip, but I feel kind of retarded cos I can't walk properly and I'm kinda foaming at the mouth and shit.

So I think if you prefer strong trips, lsd is the best because I feel that lsa is dangerous in high doses and mushrooms are unpleasant and possibly slightly bad for you in high doses. But to be fair to mushrooms, if my tolerance is down, and the mushrooms are fresh, a great time can be had on a small dose with few side effects.

I too have not had much luck when it comes to acid in the last decade or so, and when I have found it the quality has been poor. But the acid I used to get, one trip was similar in intensity to 30 or 40 hbwr seeds (I gather, as I've never had more than twenty and wouldn't want to either), and had few side effects.

But yeah, I agree that you're probably pretty safe sticking to mushies and acid when it comes to the physical side. And I reckon that most people can know how far they can push their minds - especially experienced psychonauts.

[ballzac]

I definately believe that mushies and lsa are psychologically safer than lsd.

Regarding the natural/synthetic thing. There are lots of natural compounds that are deadly poisonous, and many synthetics that are harmless. There is no connection...apart from maybe a personal spiritual association.

[strumf]

Google vasoconstriction and HBWR. This effect is quite well known.

Well I have had a look at the vasoconstriction effect but I am still a bit unsuccesfull to find whether it is only for the duration and if constricting the blood vessels frequently will cause some heart implications in future eg. high blood pressure or so. Are the blood vessels likely to be affected permanently by this. This fact definately explains some experiences I had so thanks for the info.

Now in regards to the psychological effect I have often heard that it may only trigger the'craziness' in people who were already potentially going this way but I guess overdoing anything may stuff around with your mind. These panic attacks or anxiety attacks do they happen only in certain situations or often for no particular reason at all. I am not really sure how you identify these and whether I have them but I do get anxious with work when I have to get something done quickly and especially making quick decisions about alternatives. I always thought this was just usual stress or regret for not acting optimally in given situations.

[ballzac]

I really don't know the answer to you questions about the vasoconstriction. Lack of knowledge is, in itself, a good reason not to do something. But even if it is only for the duration, it could still be dangerous if it is preventing oxygen from getting to the brain or other organs.

[Mycot]

HBW may be an unusual case as there is no history of cultural use.

That aside, before freaking out regarding unknown possible negative effects of psychedelics I think the neccessity of some hard data is warranted.

[ballzac]

I don't really see how a history of cultural use can be proof that a chemical is harmless.

Also, don't you think you have it around the wrong way to say that some har data is needed before we STOP taking things that could be dangerous? I think it is more important to not take something that could be dangerous, until we have evidence to the contrary. Having said that, I believe that there are important benefits to be gained from psychedelics, and I will continue to take them. But the risks for HBWR are FAR too great IMO and that is one that I will simply avoid.

[mu!]

If you're worried about vasoconstriction and nausea, then good old cannabis will fix that.

[Monk]

I don't really see how a history of cultural use can be proof that a chemical is harmless.

Yeah, this argument really only serves to quell the flaky, old fashioned gov't type claims that many psychedelics (lsd, mesc, etc.) were going to cause genetic mutations in the users. Looking at the chromosomes of various tribes such as the Tarahumara, Huichol among others, researchers determined that this was clearly not the case even with regular, repeated use throughout generation after generation.

Also, I think the "I only use natural drugs" argument is paper thin. Strychnine is completely natural, and psychoactive for that matter, but I wouldn't go ingesting it for a good time. It all goes back to Paracelsus' Rule for me. Also, I couldn't possibly agree more with vertmorpheus, "What is given with one hand is often taken with the other ;) Nothing is for free...."

Years ago, fungaloid alkaloids pervaded my system on a very regular basis. It takes a while, but pretty soon you realize you've started to walk around with only a very loose and transient grasp on the handles of what the general population has collectively agreed to call "reality." Now, you're faced with a problem. If you can no longer hold on, folks won't accept this as well as the Huichol may when their shaman is a little far out. I chose to meet them in the middle and keep my hands on the reins of their world. I sort of just had to close the 'screen doors of perception' just to make nice. I say this to highlight the fact that there can be and are very real tradeoffs with the use of any mind-altering substance. Some are more physical, and some are more psychological. Now, as far as alcohol goes, it seems like the tradeoff is more physical at moderate/less frequent use, while it becomes powerfully psychologically taxing in addition to the physical effects at higher doses/more frequent use. I used to hate it, but now I can see its good side. The problem is the subtle tenacity with which it carves out a spot in ones life and mind. Obviously, I have mixed feelings about this (and all) poisons. Poisons as teachers always teach you both the light and the dark. That's what makes them interesting. I don't think the 'tree of the knowledge of good and evil' was an apple like you see in sunday school

FM

[strumf]

If you're worried about vasoconstriction and nausea, then good old cannabis will fix that.

Actually I would never recommend smoking the good old cannabis for the duration as I found that the effects are totally weakened and if smoked too much the cannabis effect often takes over. Perhaps it does not matter that much at the peak but if one consumes cannabis before the onset I am almost certain the trip will not even reach its potential. This can be even noticed on some reports. Whenever mixed with MJ the experiencer was not impressed at all with the effects. In fact the best experienece when no cannabis was consumed for the whole day (preferrably a week) and in general a healthy week went by.

Well I was never worried about the feeling it gives you for the duration but for the actual long-term effects. I find it more that the surroundings are the main factor as around good music and atmosphere the energy provided is extreme and there is no pain whatsoever.