Mescaline/San Pedro Headaches

[Teotzlcoatl]

Do you have any idea how hard it is to fall asleep on cactus?

You gotta wait AT LEAST 24 hours before you can sleep (for me... that is)

[blangschpeer]

Do you have any idea how hard it is to fall asleep on cactus?

You gotta wait AT LEAST 24 hours before you can sleep (for me... that is)

I could imagine the spines wouldn't be too comfortable but whatever floats your boat

Seriously though, if it was excruciating i'd consider maybe indulging in a certain herb, not only will it ease the pain you'll fall asleep pretty easily so it's kind of a 2 prong attack.

[Gunter]

I have had headaches with pure mesc HCl and san pedro variations with the only exceptions having been with the addition of betacarboline bearing plants like peganum and caapi.

I believe the headaches are blood pressure related and related to a pressor type effects, ironic that betacarbolines would help. I have had the headaches hurt so bad with large doses(6+feet various clones) I thought I would die, on the tail end of a glorious trip, my head hurt with each pulse of blood and i could feel my body pounding with my heart. With light doses of mesc and pedro I get lighter headaches but they are very uncomfortable. My wife who has a very similar if not identical diet has no negative effects.

Again only the addition of betacarbolines has helped me with this and I do not advise that. Beer makes the headaches worse and nonprescrption pain medication doesn't help, sometimes the headaches last 8-10 hours.

Edited May 6, 2008 by Archaea

[Teotzlcoatl]

I believe the headaches are blood pressure related and related to a pressor type effects, ironic that betacarbolines would help. I have had the headaches hurt so bad with large doses(6+feet various clones) I thought I would die, on the tail end of a glorious trip, my head hurt with each pulse of blood and i could feel my body pounding with my heart. With light doses of mesc and pedro I get lighter headaches but they are very uncomfortable. My wife who has a very similar if not identical diet has no negative effects.

Again only the addition of betacarbolines has helped me with this and I do not advise that. Beer makes the headaches worse and nonprescrption pain medication doesn't help, sometimes the headaches last 8-10 hours.

Yes! That's what i get!

[Monk]

I got a mad headache last time I tripped cactus.

Is this the guy you tripped?:

Be very careful with him. He's even more likely to give your leg an injury than your head

[MindExpansion]

Hi all, i thought of a few reasons for the headaches:

I agree with salviador in that dehydration might be the cause, do you often drink much water when you are consuming?

The likelihood that it is something else is possible but it is probably less possible than it being a side effect of the mesc.

Vitamin K deficiency is unlikely, given the this is produced and stored in fat, vitamin k supplements are therefore not likely to do you any good and be careful because overdosing on fat soluble vitamins (like vitamin k) is possible and can be fatal. (but you would have to take A LOT to get acute poisoning). There are options for pain killing, like a certain herb or some other less natural options, but it is probably best if you try and decipher the root of this problem, blood pressure, as mentioned, may also be a possibility but you would need to measure it to find out. At any rate good luck solving the problem, I suspect that unless you are dehydrated or low on blood sugar which is another possibility if as you say you aren't eating too much on it, you will end up with solutions which are other drugs, such as vasodilators or something to lower your blood pressure. But good luck anyway,

Peace,

Mind

Edited November 5, 2008 by MindExpansion

[Gunter]

Would a study of the safe use of ckickpeas as a food be accurate if it only focused upon a single ethnic group? This relates to long term studies of peyote use that do show positive mental and physical impact in general. However the study was not inclusive of people with diverse ethnic backgrounds. Some of the first western first hand observations of the effects of peyote based alkaloids include headache. Likewise spanish accounts of the use of smooth cactus in the andes include mention of occasion death though the translations I have read indicate that this was rare. Diets are known for some of the San pedro using shamanic practices including lack of salt and tyramine rich foods, many assumptions for the reasons of mescaline dietary restrictions exist but I am not sure if any studies were ever involved.

In my own case headaches occured(mesc use discontinued) at the end of trips, the headaches lasted many hours in most cases and no type of food provided relief, neither did any beverage though several aggravated it such as beer. It matches seratonin syndrome type descriptions in some ways, an effect not to be disregarded.

I will mention again that someone with the same diet as me never has these effects, there is no signifigant difference in body weight or practice or water intake or food intake even when on mescaline. A minority of people report this type of effect (headache) a minority of people also have no reaction or even adverse reactions from some tryptamines like psilocybin. People are not all built the same, there is variation that accounts for behavioral and neuralchemical correlations and it is not absurd to believe that mescaline itself can have adverse side effects in a small percentage of the population, and that such effects may or may not be reducable by dietary practices or admixtures.

Betacarbolines are not well understood, they can have blood pressure lowering effects, are MAOI's of both (of A and B but it is dose dependant) and SSRI's and cause benzo related sedation effects. The amounts I used were not large, equivalent to 2 grams peganum per brew, and when I used a cold standing period to precipitate undesirable things I experienced no nausea unlike when i drank brews right off the stove.

This was all many years ago mind you.

Edited May 9, 2008 by Archaea

[Osprey]

I always get splitting headaches on the tail end with extracted mesc.

last time, as an experiment with half a gram of sulfate,,i took 3 ibuprofin at hour 10.

No headache at all.

[Teotzlcoatl]

So it's mescaline that gives this headache effect specifically, not just Trichocereus cactus.

Asprin didn't work for me...

Ever.

[whiterasta]

I have never had a headache with amounts varying from 50mg to 1200mg. I have felt "slow" the next day but no headache at all from cactus or very pure extract. According to my wife I look healthier than humanly possible while with mescalito, unlike the green gorped glow from acid and fungi . IMHO the cactus choses you and when it does it is nothing but healthy

[cycle]

hmm. SIWM had a very similar effect recently so I thought I'd search this forum for them. Lo and behold it seems common. Add another poor soul to the headache column.

Given the seeming commoness of this response I would say it's likely to be some kind of bio-chemical thing (no idea what) i.e. some people get it some don't.

[Mr Stay Puft]

Im with salviador too... these 'trips' can consume alot of water from your body due to sweating and the fact that alot of people who are 'off their face' fail to continue to hydrate themselves. I would suggest drinking at least 1.5 liters of an electrolyte solution during the experience...especially when we are talking 10-12 hours....even 2 litres would be a better amount...

The reason i suggest electrolyte solution is that your body has better ability at retaining the moisture your drinking due to osmotic potentials across your kidneys...also you dont want to over-hydarte (dilute electrolytes in your blood so much that you literally drop dead) which is a huge risk when ingesting large amounts of water...especially when tripping on a hot summers night!

[MindExpansion]

Asprin didn't work for me...

Could maybe be that aspirin is a blood thinner too and that possibly raised BP a bit and made the pain even worse, so the aspirin did work but only enough to ease the increased pain? :S

Peace

[Chiral]

Interesting thread..I find that all the Mesc cactus actually relieve my headaches..in fact I tend to use it as my pain killer of choice quite often..I brew up large amounts and store for it for a few days and chug some when I get a headache..the body load comes on and the headache goes away.

How strange that you are getting headaches from ingesting it, but what I also find strange is that Pedro is something I use to relax with and once the effects are being felt I lay down and enjoy the show with my eyes shut..I can usually drift off and sleep no problems.

I would look at things like..

Do you wear glasses and is the script up to date.

Consuming fresh room temp water before during and at the end is great.

Try to keep the noise down and have a calm atmosphere its not really something you should be doing around a lot of noise or clubbing or out amongst the community.

One of the most beautiful and relaxing experiences is to smoke some sacrament at about the 3rdHr it really makes for the most colourful pleasing show.

Also you might be squinting and concentrating and tensing up during your trip..Psychedelics have a tendency to do that to a lot of people.

Take a couple of Nurofen Plus prior to ingesting also works quite well.

Hope you work it out, take care.

H.

[Gunter]

Given the nature of the experiences I believe I can rule out dehydration and food interaction. I have played with this for about 10 years now and have tried many variables. I think its biochem in nature and believe after years of experimentation that mesc is not for, nor is it safe for, everyone. Perhaps the cacti pick you, perhaps though that is like saying that if you can digest milk then the cows picked you and thus if you can't the cows must not like you. Seeing as I don't have a way to study how my receptors and enzymes are folded in a unique way (they all are for all people) despite some standardization, I dont have a way to investigate, however I believe that some genetic lines handle things differently than others in terms of digestion, including milk, chickpeas and I believe; alkaloids. I'd go so far as to suggest that present studies of the saftey of mescaline (halpern's is unimpressive in scope and detail) lack data about different ethnicities and may not be accurate at all.

I am the only person I know first hand who gets this reaction the way I do.

Start small and learn for ones self, don't take anybodies word for it.

[nitrogen]

Well I get the headaches sometimes, but sometimes I do not... They are mild-moderate, certainly annoying... Always at the tail end of the experience..

NSAID's like Ibuprofin or Naproxen are effective... Would be a great excuse to drink some poppy or kratom tea, though I wouldn't want to sully the clarity and glow of the mescaline (or deal with opiate constipation)

[Inyan]

Your not feeding your cacti too many systemic chemicals are you? Just a thought. Another thought is suggestibility/placebo effect.

[nitrogen]

No on the systemic chemicals... Don't think it's suggestion/placebo either - I noticed the headaches long before ever reading about them, and had never experienced any sort of headache from any other psychedelic..

[Gunter]

I found out in the pharmacology of hallucinogens, an article in psychedelic review #1 issue #1, (june 63 I think) that mescaline causes hypoglycemia.

In some individuals the impact of this can be more severe. The article said pretreatment with epinephrine counteracted the effect to some degree and that both mescaline and epinephrine competed for some receptors.

In some individuals this type of effect may be a very serious health risk, such as in people who are already hypoglycemic or have abnormal epinephrine related metabolism.

Some interesting compounds have been used to combat diabetes and hypoglycemia, berberine is among them. Likewise tumeric and curcumin are interesting in this area.

Berberine is found in roots of mahonia species said to be ingested along with mescaline containing plants. Modest doses of berberine (1-2 grams) are shown to be without major side effects. I read a study where 2 grams berberine a day was fine for most people but some had constipation and had to cut the dose.

Mescalines major metabolites including 3,4,5-trimethoxyphenyethanol are produced in the liver.

In some people with liver issues there might be greater risk for dangerous hypoglycemia.

I don't think MAO has anything to do with this, but do think harmaloids impact liver function and may alter the metabolism of mescaline.

Edited February 9, 2009 by Archaea

[momomoto]

Are oxalates a problem with the tall cacti?

tha's some bad shit there - take some calcium supps - Drink milk tryptolicious

[Gunter]

Are oxalates a problem with the tall cacti?

tha's some bad shit there - take some calcium supps - Drink milk tryptolicious

The cacti can 3-5% calcium per dry weight in some cases.

Oxalates don't seem to be present when 400mg of alkaloids causes severe pain and crisis at the end of a lovely experience.

Is there any work showing if mescaline is a beta blocker?

[nitrogen]

Interesting - so to combat possible hypoglycemia drinking some sort of fruit juices or other sugary product toward the tail end might help?

I don't technically have hypoglycemia (my blood glucose readings were normal at my last check up a couple months back), but I am lean and I experience precipiatous drops in blood sugar accompanied by irritability and such - my ex girlfriend who is a physician used to tell me I was hypoglycemic at those times - so maybe my headaches are related to that...

I'm gonna be having some syrup tomorrow anyway so maybe it'l be a good day to test the hypothesis ;)

[incognito]

maybee u where subjected to alien sound healing techniques?

[Gunter]

The hypoglycemic effect seems linked the adernergic systems and epinephrine levels, this has an effect that may alter glucose metabolism, so trying to correct the situation with glucose intake might not be effective. I have not found ingestion of fruit juice to reduce headache in these cases.

Taking some ephedrine containing product might be of some use, however this might lower threshold dosage of mescaline and has other side effects that may be undesirable.

I have read that the effective dose of mesc can vary 5X from person to person.

Perhaps some people who get headaches might try reduced dosages?

[nitrogen]

Well I had some syrup - milder dose of pachanoi - really lovely experience with euphoria and such - that evening went to an event and felt the beginnings of a headache creeping in at about the 8-10 hour mark - I had been eating Clif Bars and tangerines, and also added a small amount of mushrooms to the mix - the headache never really manifested and I had a great evening...

Unless glucose isn't metabolized at all I would think supplementing carbohydrates would be effective...

I have heard of psylocybin helping with the headaches too..

I'd rather have the headache than an ephedrine jolt on the tail end of a mescaline trip though I know that...

I think it is something we can do something about though because, at least in my case, I don't always get the headaches (regardless of dose - I have taken high doses with no headaches), but sometimes I do...

The last time I had mescaline before this time I got a headache, and noticed that I was holding a lot of tension in my cranial muscles as well, and upon shutting my eyes and really focusing on relaxing that area, the intensity of the headache abated..

So maybe fruit or other food in general, psylocybin, and relaxation practice combined is a good way to go - more experimentation needed Mushrooms mix very very well with cactus in any event...