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Guest Thelema

Q: treated Salvia Div. seed OK to trade?

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Guest Thelema

whilst we're on frivolous matters, suppose my E.Coca has a little red bumpy rash underneath the leaves? What is it?

A Cocapillar !!

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keep an eye on that rash, it could be serious. eventually the red dots will merge to form the following phrase: send WD plants/seeds/cuttings. sometimes the phrase may take up more than one leaf. not known to be fatal.

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I hate to be a party pooper, but I doubt that anyone in Oz has any theoretical or practical E.coca. All plants sold as such by various people have always been E.novogranatense.

The best way to tell the diff is to check the colour of the leaves. If it is a pale green then it is novogranatense (see pics at Medicine Garden's homepage). http://atom.spot.com.au/herbmed/Database/B...vagradensis.jpg

E.coca has dark green leaves.

I'd love to be proven wrong, but so far everyone has failed....

[This message has been edited by Torsten (edited 25 October 2002).]

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Wouldn't E.novagradensis be practically better anyway? Isn't it more robust than E.coca and has the same goodies. Handels the less humid and cooler conditions.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

E D

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Guest Thelema

SORRY guys, that post was meant to be obviously mendacious. I didnt mean to imply that I had an e.coca plant.

Have Fun.

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Guest electro

i'm not fussed about a plant that makes a substance that makes oh so many people agressiv and edgy... i would however love if someone could shed some light on the original topic "Q, Treated Sal Div Seed OK to trade ?".

If it is, if they are viable and someone is willing to trade them i for one will be over the moon.

I like the cocoa-pillar joke though smile.gif

[This message has been edited by electro (edited 27 October 2002).]

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"Sal div... if they are viable and someone is willing to trade them"

The question is what would be a fair trade for viable seed? 1 gram sal div seed for 10 grams gold? 15 grams gold? 100 viable seeds for one viable human kidney?

I think trading S. divinorum seed would be immoral 90% of the time. That sage is in EXTREME peril due to a tremendous lack of biodiversity, if someone was good enough at growing it to get seed they should grow the seed, designate each seedling with a unique cultivar code, and trade or give away labled cuttings of those new 'cultivars'.

Thats what my moral code says anyway.

[This message has been edited by Auxin (edited 27 October 2002).]

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Guest reville

I wish we could settle the question of whether it is a hybrid or not once and for all.

If it were then we could generate more sallys from the parent species any time we wanted.

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S. divinorum has been grown from seed, and the resulting plants are said to have been S. divinorum. While its not PROOF, it does indicate that the probability of S. divinorum being a hybrid is lower than generally thought.

More study required.

Also, if it is a hybrid whos to say that the parent species are not extinct?

My theory is that S. divinorum is a true species that may have gone extinct in the wild after it lost most of its seed producing ability and a few captive ones were kept alive by native americans. Its happened before, ginkgo went extinct in the wild and a few plants in a monestary garden (or emperial garden, I forget witch) were kept alive. From them the species was reestablished across the globe.

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Guest electro

when i had one (before i cared for it too much i had plans 2 populate local creeks with these amazing plants... i encourage anmone that has one to do the same.... takes all our eggs out of the one basket ... might help save the species.

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Auxin, when we talk of hybridity then it is actually in reference to a true strain developed from this hybrid. It is clear that salvia div is not an F1 hybrid, but quite possibly F4+n, which would have given it enough time to stabilise as a variety.

The argument against the species being derived from a stable species and having lost its reproductive ability as a cultigen does not make sense due to the type of pollination problem. In cultigens the pollen is usually rejected at the stigma, whereas in hybrids (or new varieties derived therefrom) the pollentube may abscisse at the ovary. In salvia the latter is the case.

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Originally posted by electro:

i'm not fussed about a plant that makes a substance that makes oh so many people agressiv and edgy

Coca leaf has no resemblance to cocaine just like poppy extract has little resemblance to heroin. The last thing we need is more prejudice in this community.

Coca is also an important traditional medicine and absolutely essential for the Andean highland lifestyle.

And yes, novogranatense is the more desirable species anyway. I am just trying to get people away from the misconception that they have seen a coca plant.

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Guest reville

I dont count the fact that SD sets viable seed that comes out like SD as definitive proof that it is not a hybrid species. The very low seed set and low viability and vigour of SD seedlings has to be considered

Corn is also a hybrid species, as are our modern varieties of wheat, these are viable and reproduce true to type.

Has ayone access to any close relatives or possible parent species? in future it will be possible to run genetic analysis to determine

how SD relates to to other ages of the area.

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"I dont count the fact that SD sets viable seed that comes out like SD as definitive proof that it is not a hybrid species."- reville

Thats not what I said, I said:

"While its not PROOF, it does indicate that the probability of S. divinorum being a hybrid is lower than generally thought."

And I was under the impression that by hybrid y'all meant a F1 or F2, but as Torsten pointed out:

"salvia div is not an F1 hybrid, but quite possibly F4+n"

I guess it all depends on how far you carry the term hybrid. Carry it to infinity and all life on earth are hybrids, humans (Homo sapiens sapiens) being something like F972 hybrid of Homo erectus and Homo sapiens neandertalensis.

In any case I'll say the key divinorum dilema phrase again:

More study needed.

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Auxin, I think the point here is that even though most organisms are of hybrid origin (not all though), most have also moved far away from their original F1 geno and phenotype. Obviously the larger n is in F4+n, the less likely that this individual would look like F1. The point about salvia div is that it is quite possible that it is not that far removed from F1 and that the parent species are still available. Not much research has been done on Salvias and it would be interesteing if salvinorinA production turns out to be a recessive gene only activated in certain hybrids. Finding the parents is thus a priority. I should point out that the hybridity theory (whether F1 or F4+n) is very unpopular with salvia divinorum researchers in general, however I have not heard any convincing arguments against the F4+n theory.

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Guest electro

Re Torsten:

"Coca leaf has no resemblance to cocaine just like poppy extract has little resemblance to heroin. The last thing we need is more prejudice in this community."

True, it has little resemblance, however the potential for abuse is there and one cannot ignore that fact. This is not to say the species should be demonised, it is only to say that people should use their heads.

Keep in mind that i am not implying that the species is "bad" or "evil", all i am saying is that the plant should be used CORRECTLY and that because of it's relation to and it's potential to be made into something i have seen cause many problems, i am slightly wary of this species.

Note i have had no experience with this plant and that i may be much less wary of it if i could get my hands on one to get to know it's character.

Prejudice was most certainly not the intent of my post... i apologise if i came across that way.

Electro

[This message has been edited by electro (edited 28 October 2002).]

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Guest reville
Originally posted by Torsten:

it would be interesteing if salvinorinA production turns out to be a recessive gene only activated in certain hybrids.

Or perhaps it is the combination of the biosynthetic systems of two species that usually interact to form products a1,a2,a3 etc in species A and products b1,b2,b3 in species 2

but in the hybrid perhaps the precursors end up folowing some recombinant mode of processing that pushes it along novel pathways.

Ive seen molecular and biosynthetic work done with plants and fungi with the hopes of understanding these pathways and already one gene responsible for the production of resveratrol has been put into tobacco which tags onto the existing pathways and produces resveratrol in the plant.Likewise genes added or blocked in plants like catharantheus and even peganum harmala have shown how far alakloid profiles can shift by single gene changes. I dont think much work has been done on the terpenes

What might be an interesting lead is to look at the compounds in the other possible parent salvias alongside the minor prducts of SD as further evidence towards their identity or at least a chemotaxonomic positioning of SD in the group.

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Guest Thelema

hey rev ive got exactly that, a listing of 13 neoclerodane diterpenoids from madrensis and mellissodora, both mexican salvias from the same family as divinorum.

Comparing all their structures to salA tho, salA seems to have a unique shape, but im no pharmacognocist...

If i had a scanner i could put them up here...

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I thought Salvia divinorum was quite capable of living without human intervention, propagating by falling over and rooting at the nodes.

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Is there an answer as to whether it is illegal to trade the treated seed? Or are most people just wanting to avoid any trading with salvia because of the lack of clarity as far as laws go?

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Any state that enforces the SUSDP in its drug act is not a good state to trade salvia seeds in. I know that QLD and NSW belong in this group.

In Vic the SUSDP is only enforced as part of the Poisons act and is not an indictable offence. The maximum fine here would be $10,000 I think, but definitely no jail or record.

But as always the seeds are apparently exluded from all SUSDP applications as long as they are 'treated' (as per one of the SUSDP appendices). The question as to what constitutes treatment is a dodgy one. As an organic farm we believe sulphur to be a good and effective treatment. How this would actually stand up in court is a different matter. Seeds treated with eg Carbaryl should definitely fit the classification.

I also doubt that salvia seeds would be worthy of any enforcement agent's time and effort wink.gif

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