TBM's Induced Pupping

[Auntyjack]

Hey cactophiles,

I was hoping we could squeeze the brains trusts and see what spills.

Seems to be a bit of info out there for forced pupping of col trichs

ie, nails/drills, superglue, fertilizers, laying sideways, stressing. etc etc

But what practical attempts or theorectical ideas exist for the TBM forced pupping?

All ideas would be welcome, and wouldn't mind putting this thread in FAQ.

What you think?

AJ

[Ace]

You could easily force a TBM to pup by severing the apical meristem (as you would with any other cactus) by using a drill bit or red hot nail etc. You could even just chop the top off the pup and it should produce new pups from the lower areoles instead of continuing growth in the upper part of the 'penis'. Therefore, it will focus on producing pubes instead of a single shaft

I could imagine stressing the plants might help, though I think that an ideal environment will give out the faster growing and more rapidly pupping specimens. Same goes with ferts - that will help create an ideal balance of nutes for the plant and should increase growth rates quite well.

Superglue? Not sure how this could be used - mind elaborating? Same with laying sideways - dont think it would do much to help, but of course could have some benefits.

All in all, if you want an abundance of pups, you should try to create an ideal environment. Lighting (fluoros are fantastic - anything nice and bright, but not scortching), heating (really only an issue with outdoor specimens but ideally sit at about 25-30C), watering (TBMs can take a fair bit, but probably not quite as much as a regular T. bridgesii), airflow (should be a little bit to avoid stalled growth - same goes with any plant), fertilising (only needed occasionally, but can have drastic effects when used optimally) and finally pest control (not a big issue with TBMs, but they can damage or even kill if not prevented/treated asap).

If all these criteria are met to the best that you can provide, then you will have some happy little cacti and plenty of material to propegate in your cactus patch

[Auntyjack]

hey Ace, yeah the superglue was the a grafting angle, sorry I was dumping what was in my head.

Are hormones responsible for pupping?...can they be identified and introduced/injected?

AJ

[nitrogen]

If you chop a cactus down so there's no tip, just a flat column, does it need much sunlight anymore for good pupping to happen? It should pup eventually right?

I've got a couple I cut like that to propagate, and have put them in a very shady spot because they're an eyesore and people want to ask questions about why I have these stumps in pots... Does doing this make them more likely to pup well or less likely?

[teonanacatl]

im not sure i follow? TBM pups like mad whats the problem?

Yeah hormones are responsible for pupping, auxins are responsible for apical dominance cytokinins are responsible for opposite. there was one that was used by somone at the nook (rub on each areole with cotton bud) to induce pupping of pereskiopsis so he could remove all branches before grafting.

here this is the stuff

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.p...rue#Post2951114

[tonic]

Any good, reasonably priced tissue culture suppliers around? This could be a very interesting experiment for other cacti, producing new pups etc.

[apothecary]

Err yeah just a big pot, morning sunlight and frequent watering and fertilisation?

[Ace]

If you chop a cactus down so there's no tip, just a flat column, does it need much sunlight anymore for good pupping to happen? It should pup eventually right?

Nitrogen: I would shift the stumps into a brighter position - they are very hardy and can tolerate pretty intense heat (though too much can be a bad thing). Just remember to water slightly more often when in a hotter/drier position than a shady/cool one. You will get much faster growing and larger plants in full sun than those left in a shaded area.

p.s. Yes, they will pup - if a cactus cannot grow up (when it has the tip chopped/damaged), it is forced to branch/pup out of any available areoles (usually those closer to the top of the plant).

It might also be noted that columns that have their tops chopped will almost always pup from the upper-most areoles, whereas a large plant that has not been chopped/damaged will usually tend to pup from towards the base.

Edited August 8, 2007 by Ace

[teonanacatl]

I wont pin this sorry I still fail to see how its an important subject?

[Auntyjack]

teo I don't want it pinned, I was going to throw a link into the FAQ 'Discussion' thread nothing more.

I didn't post this thread to ask the optimum growing conditions either, I want to have a discussion specific to TBM's on ppls thoughts and experiences in what cause TBMs to pup whether physical or chemical.

So far Ace and teo have thrown the info out there that I was hoping to discuss, I am especially interested in the chemical manipulation of pupping, however seeing how I have not done a biology degree of any nature I will probably ask simplton questions. I am just curious.

Fuck its been a shitter day thanks anyway.

AJ

[apothecary]

I would say there is no difference in the cause of pupping between TBM and any other cacti?

If the tip is damaged or stops growing it will pup. If it is healthy it will pup. If you lime the soil it will pup.

Cacti are like other plants in that they like to keep their rootball at roughly the same mass as the aerial sections, so once the rootspace increases sufficiently, they will pup.

[Monk]

While I have only one TBM and limited experience with it, I have much experience with plants in general. One of my favorite growth boosting blends to apply to all my special plants (ethnos, herbs, rare fruits, orchids etc.) is a soln of humic acid, and a commercial product called Dark Energy. It is popular among the special flowering annual crowd for its growth enhancement and I have some left over from that phase of my life. Here's the link:Dark Energy Vendor

Anyway, I was applying this soln to my various plants and forgot that cacti HATE humic acid. Well, I hit them with it - all of them. The next day, they were terribly discolored in a difficult to describe way. It was as if the green had receeded under the surface, covered by a grey-green. When pushed on, they were soft and the underneath green showed up. I was terrified and pissed off at myself especially as my TBM was now adjusted to a good light situation. Anyway, I left them alone and they normalized in a week. One week later, they all sent out new pups! This was about 6 weeks ago and they all have lots of new growth with the (small) TBM having 4 new pups at once. My Juul's giantxSS01 is only about 15" high and now has a new pup on both sides of its base. This all seems sudden and extreme. I want to do an experiment with just the Dark Energy, but I'm scared of what happened last time. I have seen them unhappy about humic acid years ago in a friends garden so the DE is likely okay for them, but I'm still nervous cuz they're my babies. Anyway, thought I'd share this as food for thought. By the way, the DarkEnergy does kick ass on all other plants, but I only apply it prior to an expected growth phase based on weather.

[teonanacatl]

sorry aunty jack i missunderstood what you ment. I thought you wanted to make TBM's pup more.

The reason they pup is termination of the growing tip causes and increase in hormones responsible for growth at the meristems, these hormones arnt used and so build up causing lower areoles to pup.

[phloom]

A good way to increase pup growth sites is to cut the top off segments leaving a few areoles (and use as you wish). A segment will usually pup 2-3 segments quickly depending on conditions.

However i think you want to be strategic as a mass of pups close together tend to pierce each other, thin out the centre segments and use them for more prop material.

Man TBMs grow quickly if you giv em good conditions! Ive tested a few different potting mixes over the years, an i reckon 50/50 composted pine bark fines and fine 2mm diatomite with a small amount of slow release every warm season is a total winner.

Having a green thumb helps aswell

[Auxin]

cacti HATE humic acid. Well, I hit them with it - all of them. The next day, they were terribly discolored in a difficult to describe way. It was as if the green had receeded under the surface, covered by a grey-green. When pushed on, they were soft and the underneath green showed up. I was terrified and pissed off at myself especially as my TBM was now adjusted to a good light situation. Anyway, I left them alone and they normalized in a week. One week later, they all sent out new pups!

Actually found this googling for this very subject (well, specifically for Pereskiopsis but yeah...) Dont know how I missed it.

That is Very strange for humate. I could see it encouraging root rot in Lophs, Areocarpii, et al. Your sure it wasnt just as if they had been overwatered? Humate stimulates roots.

Commercial "humic acid" is usually very impure and often bad pH, I make my own crystaline ammonium humate thats gentler on plants, I was going to try it on several pereskiopsis but perhaps I should just try it on one of a near identical pair I'm currently rooting.

In your mix what did the final concentration come out to be? In most plants optimal humate concentration is from 0.008 to 0.010% calculated as free humic acid.

[Monk]

Lessee, I used to measure it exactly, but these days I eyeball everything in my garden (unless it's a new product) as I've gone from science to art with most of it. Anywho, I'd say I use about 1 oz. per gallon h2o of a product that, according to the manufacturer, is '11% humic acid.' So .11/128=.00086% humic acid. Wow, that seems pretty low in relation to the '.008%' you're talking about, Auxin. I would love to hear about your method of making ammonium humate and would love even more to hear of someone using humates successfully on cacti. 'Humic acid' is my favorite plant supplement and all the rest of my plants get off on it big time as a foliar or root feed. If I were you, I'd try it as you said: on one at first to test it out. I'm not sure why they have reacted this way for me, but it seemed to me to be some sort of pH or nute (maybe calcium?) imbalance. My gut tells me there is some connection here to the different pH/nute preferences of cacti vs. typical leafy plants (calcic vs. humus rich soils). Oh, and it wasn't overwatering, as they're in containers with a very dry mix that allows for watering every other day in this warm weather and I did not change this schedule. Would love to hear your thoughts, methods, and results regarding cacti and humates, Auxin. Maybe they need a different pH or concentration of it? This just popped into my head, though, as I was typing: commercial 'humic acid' products are really just potassium humates extracted from leonardite. Maybe the ultra-available potassium is good for leafy plants, but is causing a nute imbalance that cacti don't like (I keep thinking calcium...don't know why)? I wonder if ammonium humate would be different or if calcium humate would be better still? No guts, no glory, Auxin

[Auxin]

Woops, I was off by a factor of ten should have been 0.0008-0.001. For most plants I use 3.8 grams of ammonium humate per gallon (comes out as 0.000925% calculated as humic acid), first dissolving it in a cup of near boiling water (you'll soon come to love the smell) then diluting to a gallon. Not usually that effective in solanacaea but great in many other plants.

I reuse all my potting soil one year to the next, washing salts out in between potting new plants in it.. when some gets well aged I extract it with ~5% lye, the extract should be pitch black and smell sort of like rotten fish, I bring this extract to ~pH 3 with hydrochloric acid, at this point it smells good IMO, like pure fertility wafting on the wind after a spring rain, the humic acid precipitates leaving a yellow or orange liquid bearing salts and fulvic acid. I dissolve the humic acid in ammonia, dilute it, reprecipitate, dissolve it in ammonia once more, evaporate, and grind the black crystaline plates into a course powder.

A shortcut would be to get commercial 'humic acid' liquid and regard it as the lye-extract of potting soil (reduces hazards a bit too) the problem is leonardite is Not the best precursor, its the worst one that is still viable as a precursor. They tried to use coal but yield was too low and the product was trash. Peat or aged potting soil leaves leonardite in the dust in terms of the products benefit to plants and I read a paper by one researcher saying that the best he ever encountered was produced from worm castings. The commercial stuff is sometimes potassium based, as you say, but usually its sodium humate. sodium = bad

Soluble humate will precipitate soluble calcium into a sort of time-release mineralized form and it can also chelate trace metals in the soil and greatly increase their availability.

My process is probably far more effort than most would bother with but I like to baby my plants

[Monk]

Great stuff, Auxin! I never realized it was that simple. I love that this process is so alchemical: Yes, the processes and reactions are understood, but when it comes down to it, what are we extracting? The structure of humic acids is so complex and ill-understood that it is like extracting the Essence of living material. Apparently, whole functional chains of DNA and RNA are bound up in these giant molecules. That gives even more credence to the notion of the source of humic acids effecting the outcome immensely. My old horticulture professor used to say, "After we die, we go back to the humus." Since then, I've always thought of humus like the 'Source' from buddhism. Thanks for the tek, it looks like I've got work to do Let me know how the ammonium humates treat your cacti, I'm dying to know if it's the humates or the high Na/K solubility that they don't like (likely the latter.) Just a thought, considering that nitrogen in the form of ammonia encourages alkaloid production in cacti, wouldn't this chelated form be great for our prefered metabolic products (if they like it)?

FM

[Auxin]

Your right in that the composition varies greatly based on source. One researcher even published a paper on how if oil is spilled on the ground it can be determined what plants grew in the soil after the spill based on the ratios of aliphatic and aromatic hydrocarbons from the oil that were incorporated into the humic substances in the plants root zone!

Basically the reaction that is occuring is caustic hydrolysis of the insoluble humic substances into humin (insoluble in acid, base, and neutral), humic acid (soluble in base), and fulvic acid (soluble in acid, base, and neutral... and a bitch to isolate). The humic acid can be further subdivided to fractions precipitates at pH 7.5 vs. pH 6.0 and one fraction is soluble in ethanol (called ulmic or hymatomelanic acid in the literature but basically its only talked about in the 3 main divisions- humin being tossed into incinerator generators, humic acid being used for crops and posh mud baths, fulvic acid being used in research and as a marketing catch phrase in salty unpurified humic extracts.

Not sure if the nitrogen from ammonium humate would effect alkaloid levels much- in my batches 3.8 grams ammonium humate has 0.3 grams NH3, that wouldnt be a whole lot dissolved in a gallon but it could swing the NPK ratio a bit and tell the plant to change its proteinomics a bit altering its biochemistry... dunno. I selected the ammonium form over the potassium form because ammonia is easy to get and excess evaporates- no titration needed.