Salvia divinorium produce viable seed with a 75%-99% success rate

[shruman]

Theres been a thread over at the shroomery that has been going for bout a month where a guy reckons he made Sally set 70-99% viable seed.

Heres an exerpt from the thread at: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.p.../0/fpart/1/vc/1

"i have figured out how to make a salvia divinorum produce viable seed with a 75%-99% ; ) success rate.

i will share my secret with the person who comes the closest to coming up with the answer. this will take awhile so keep thinking how i have done this.it is possible.just took some thinking,alot of it.quite difficult.

we will weed out chemicals,hormones and anything non organic for my results.please don't tell me how much $$$ i am going to make off of this method because i'm not here for that.i simply wanted to see if it was possible and it is.

anyone have any idea's?

let the game begin.

the winner is the new owner of the technique and a non techniqued blosser cutting free of charge.can't just hand over a viable seed cutting like nothing.a do it yourself deal.you also have to supply the other half of the technique which the winner will obviously get to know.cheap.time is the essence. "

Apparently this is what he done

"i took the blosser variety of salvia divinorum,x amount of plants for variability.
i took the park's whopper var. of salvia splendens,x amount of plants for variability.
i then let them cross pollinate with my help individually.
i planted the two varieties of seed from each plant.
i then began weeding out the genetics of the splendens from the divinorum seed,as the splendens seed consistently had to much splendens genes.this took many years of work and cross breeding.
i continued to weed out the plants producing unviable seed stock until i had a salvia divinorum plant with the genes from the splendens that make the salvia splendens produce viable seed.thousands of plants.
the mind altering chemical salvinorin-a has nothing to do with the two genes that encourage viable seed from a salvia divinorum or salvia splendens"

So wot do u all think?

I would have thought if this was possible it would have already been done.

Would b FING AWESOME if it were true!

Edited March 2, 2013 by planthelper
tag has been added

[Μορφέας]

INTERESTING,

[Hagakure]

the theory is all tight.

hope its true.

is this hybrid illegal under australian law?

[shruman]

Not as the law stands.

If it is actualy possible.

[occidentalis]

I think this is very unlikely.

In the recent discussion on hybrid legality Auxin brought up the important point of chromosome number. S. splendens and S. divinorum do not have the same chromosome number, therefore hybridising them would be unlikely and producing viable seed from the hybrids would be even less likely.

If the author is telling the truth, what he has is not a "salvia divinorum plant with the genes from the splendens", it's a Salvia splendens x divinorum. The "genes from the splendens that make the salvia splendens produce viable seed" bit is also questionable - it may not be 'the genes' in S. splendens that allow it to set viable seed, but the fact that S. splendens does not consist of a small number of genetically similar clonal lines. Similary with the "x amount of plants for variability" bit - they're clones, you can take as many as you want and it won't make any difference to the 'variability', because they don't vary.

We still have a lot to learn about the biology of this plant and this whole excerpt is so full of conjecture and assumption that it hurts my eyes. I guess that's why I don't read the shroomery. I don't think that someone without technical knowledge could not achieve something like this, but the obvious ignorance of basic genetics and plant biology displayed by this person makes me think it's very unlikely.

However, I'd love to be proven wrong.

EDIT: I have just read through the thread on the shroomery, it seems many others have raised the same questions as me and this person has done nothing to address them. Draw your own conclusions.

Edited May 14, 2007 by creach

[Hagakure]

if the initial hybrid is possible then all the rest is possible.

i would wonder about the potency of the hybrid though

if this dude is selecting for the viable seeds each generation and salvinorin-a content is being ignored, it may drift a little and possibly down. not sure.

that said. if he now has sally plants that produce lots of viable seeds then a breeding program to boost salvinorin-a levels shouldnt be too hard.

[Torsten]

hand pollination of divinorum with splendens has been tried before by several people and did not work. this guy is talking fertiliser.

[Auxin]

Dudes blowin smoke up your asses. Perhaps to trick people into brain storming to figure out a way.

It could only have a chance at working if one were to use a tetraploidy S. divinorum. Ironically the best way to produce a tetraploid involves growing it from seed

If someone were to try hybridization they would need a diploid salvia species with 2n=22, preferably a species that comes from central/south america so it might not be as genetically distant.

Salvia Chromosome Charts

[Amulte]

has to be cross polination with light intensity. cross polinate the wanting or curently flowering (cross sub species) in conjunction with light intensity.

id even put money on it, 50/50 odds on the light intensity as being part of it LOL. any takers?

[Amulte]

after readin auxin's post, id bet on 'smoke up the ass' but still say the right light cycle, temp/humid and stain selection... one could get it to seed. i remember it was said that flowers alone are impossible, that was untill i saw them LOL

Edited May 14, 2007 by Amulte

[Auxin]

Your right, it may be as simple as light/temp/humidity

S. divinorum has a long history of people in the west calling things impossible to cover up their own failures caused by lack of scientific rigor.

Botanists tried to flower it and failed, they proclaimed its 'impossible' to flower in cultuvation (wrong)

Chemists assumed that no non-alkaloid could possibly be an hallucinogen so when they were unable to find an alkaloid in it they proclaimed its hallucinogenic effect a myth (wrong)

Botanists were unable to get a flower to set seed so they deemed it 100% infertile (wrong)

Botanists finally got seeds but failed to sprout them and deemed the species to lack the ability to make viable seed (wrong)

Do we see a pattern? (In the end plants were grown that were used as hallucinogens, flowering was induced, seed set occured, seed were collected and grown)

Keep an open mind and follow the scientific method, I'm sure she will teach us many new things

[teonanacatl]

I know of a member here who use to get loads of seeds from his plants, only a few were viable though.

[Prophet]

AFOAF told me that you can get viable seeds from Salvia divinorum by handpollinating the flowers. Remove the anthers from one flower and place some pollen on the stigma with a pair of tweezers. Most of the seeds wont be viable but a few develop embryos and can germinate. The best way is to have some large established plants with lots of flowers to increase the chances of getting some viable seeds.

[Auxin]

S. divinorum seed production faq

[Ace]

I totally agree with Auxin: Perhaps to trick people into brain storming to figure out a way.

Good on him though, getting people creative with a little false hope.

[tonic]

Sounds dicey.

Hypothetically, if one was to graft a S. divinorum scion onto a root sock of a quality strain of S. splendens, or something similiar, where legal of course. Would'nt this be a more practical way of attemping to produce viable seed?

I am assuming that the act con would'nt be altered, not sure about this.

Just a thought.

[occidentalis]

By what mechanism do you propose grafting would allow viable seed production to occur tonic?

[Vertmorpheus]

The graftstock idea MIGHT help out if the germ rate issue is one of a shortage of useable and appropriate nutes in the food reserve formed in each seed. maybe. plants are sookier about their trace elements etc than we tend to realise, especially things from a fairly localised area, they learn to rely on the presence of a certain nutrient, soil component or seasonal event that is lacking in most other places. Could be anything from the amount of time seeds tend to spend in rotting flowers, to being too wet when the seeding process really wants it nice and dry, anything.

What I'm wondering is , I see a bit of stuff now n then on this issue... whats the demand? I'm not taking the piss it's just entirely over my head haha... are people after beans to try smoking them? Or is it just to help the mailout process? Because if it takes from cuttings easily enough, the need for seed isn't exactly critical to the issue of there being more plants around. Veg prop only plants , or those treated as such, are among some of the most widely cultivated plants on earth.

Some plants tend to have a shitty podset etc unless the first few flowers are pulled off, and a few things don't get into properly seeding up if its too hot or bright (too much light can make plants go into an emergency shutdown mode, think falling unconscious for your own safety, basic functions ar ekept running but gratuitous processes are shut down for a while)... I don't know all that much about sally, tried some ages ago and was less than impressed but had a good time watching someone flip ouut and hide under the desk because thats what they'd read on erowid And another good chuckle watching some poor stoner babe drop the butane pen in between the cushions on the lounge, never seen hippies shift arse that fast... But I think its a forest clearing kind of thing?Not quite jungle? Might be wrong... at any rate, people tend to hear "south american" or "tropical" and think things want to have soaking wet soil and heaps of direct light, overkill on the food. Some things just suck too,seedwise... I have two different lions tail plants, well both the "normal" variety but from different sources... one set of genetics seeds quite happily under any conditions and the other, neverseeds. Ever. I cut thru the bases of the tubes on many, many flowers (ripened of course) and didn't find a one, and both kinds are growing within feet of each other.

Bloody nature... surely there's something unnatural we could do?

GD

[planthelper]

i think getting seed from salvia divinorum is so appealing because it is difficult, and let's not forget siebert (spell?) asked for astronomical amounts of money for his seeds and his emeralds.

seeds are needed for people living in countries which allowe salvia div, but not the import of live plants.

aswell genetic diversety is what's sought as different strains might harbour different plant actives profiles.

last but not least, seeds would be a good methode of creating virus and disease free stock.

pictures of different strains of salvia have been published at some forums.

once more seeds are produced, somebody surly will make a claim like, my super salvia is stronger than others, but only gives nice trips and so on.

it's our curiosety as humans to overcome the seemingly impossible, the fact salvia seeds are rarly produced, makes us even more so to achive this task....

i think the best would be to go to mexico and look there for more genetic different plant material. it would be very interressting to dna test various samples of salvia which grow there...

i know only of one other plant right now which reminds me of this scenario, carica pentagona (babacco), but i don'know if, the parents of babacco (which i think are known, but maybe speculated)have been successfully merged again to form yet again seedgrown babacco's.

i hope you get my drift... i remeber some claims about the possible parents of sally, but don't remeber the names now, hmm,.... does anybody know the names? a back cross with mom or dead should work, or not?

is the forming of an embryo, totaly impossible if the chromosons nummbers don't match, or can it just maybe happen against extreem rare odds???!

as you can see, i have forgotten all what they told us in school about dna, but that is just the nice thing with the forums, a funny idea, might brainstorm the experts, to something new, so i'm all up for this thread and all the claims which have been made.

daniel siebert collected seeds at hawai, maybe this location was very similar to divinoriums place of origin at mexico (high up and equatorial, eternal spring climat). ideal conditions are often needed for a plant to set seeds, but let's face it, probably next to nobody grows salvia in condition similar to it's birthplace.

i guess salvia sets sometimes seeds in mexico...

there are quite a few salvias i'v seen which look vey much like divinorum,

this is exciting, can't wait to click auxins list.....

next vacation, i'll have i'll be looking for sally in the highlands of mexico, wanna come too?

Edited May 15, 2007 by planthelper

[tonic]

By what mechanism do you propose grafting would allow viable seed production to occur tonic?

Well AFAIK S. splendens is a free flowering and vigorous seed producing species with high seed viability. In theory should'nt some of these characteristics be present in a grafted plant? Is there any reference of this type of experiment being carried out? Would love to have read about it. I might be barking up the wrong tree with this theory, but it was just a thought I had been entertaining. If only the laws were different, I could actually try a few grafting experiments, which I wont, as I am not keen to break the law.

Any feedback would be appreciated.

Do you think this theory of mine holds any water? Or is it just a fanciful pipedream.

Thanks.

Edited May 16, 2007 by tonic

[Ace]

The grafting idea wouldnt hold up AFAIK. Look at lophs grafted onto trichs. The chemical composition of the lophs is not altered, even with the differing chems in the trich. Same as a gyno or astro grafted to a pedro - the scion doesnt draw up the alks, unfortunately. I can only assume the same would be the same with the salvias. Though, it could be very different in this type of plant...

[tonic]

S. divinorum does'nt have alkaloids. Would'nt it be desirable then for the stock to produce certain characterics whilst the scion still contains Salvinorin A?

[Ace]

Good point, but same principle I think - the genetics do not get passed onto the scion AFAIK. Would anyone disagree with my statement? I havent read too much on the subject, but from what I have, it all points this way

[shruman]

^^ true genes are not passed from stock to scion in a graft, therefore genes responsible for viable seed production in splendens would not b passed 2 the divinorium.

[Auxin]

This again? lmao

Genes can be transfered from stock to scion in a heritable way, its been proven time and again in solanacaea at least... but I'll agree it seems to be the exception rather than the rule. I've never heard of it occuring in cactus and I've never heard of anyone even trying in genus Salvia