Bio Deisel

[Greeny]

Heya All

Im just posting this for everyones info. Im a desiel mechanic and being so I've seen my fair share of trucks stuffed by biodeisel. Sure its proberbly fine in warmer states but when It hits colder regions it seperates into 2 parts 1 part liquid 1 part sludge. Guess where the sludge ends up at the bottom right near the pick up. Clogs the filters and then you ain't goin nowhere. One night I had to go on a call out and change the filters 6 times in order to get the truck back to the workshop where I was able to clean the crappy biodeisel out and replace it with proper desiel.

This just goes to show some alternative fuels are a long way from sufficient

Greeny out

[paradox]

perhaps they were using bio-diesel which hadn't had the glyserine extracted properly

?

is this VERY common?

[Rev]

what is a cold climate?

oils aint oils

cold is the same...

[Greeny]

what is a cold climate?

oils aint oils

cold is the same...

Victorian type cold weather is sufficient to mess up the biodeisel. Anything colder would have the same effect I could imagine

Its even at the point that It will seperate whilst the truck is running. This I believe is due to the fact of the tanks being on the side of the truck.I know series 60's cycle about 50litres a minute and even that doesn't fix the problem.

Be all end all cold + biodeisel = Big repair bill

[Greeny]

perhaps they were using bio-diesel which hadn't had the glyserine extracted properly

?

is this VERY common?

Extremely common. It happens on pretty every much truck that comes from queensland thats running it. One bloke at work got 3 different call outs in one night.... Same problem.

The main reason I posted is that unlike trucks smaller deisel cars dont have the heavy duty fuel filters that trucks have. You could potentially root your engine. Not cheap

[paradox]

i personally know very little on the subject, but my uncle who is a mechanic told me that when diesel engines were invented they were designed to run on vegetable oil.

this true?

[Greeny]

i personally know very little on the subject, but my uncle who is a mechanic told me that when diesel engines were invented they were designed to run on vegetable oil.

this true?

Ummm honestly I can answer that however I know that Henry Ford first designed the T Model to be run on ethanol.

The problem isnt that the fuel won't run an engine. The problem is that the fuel shits itself in the cold wether. Apart from that it is perfectly useable.

[teonanacatl]

biodiesel is composed of FAMEs, fatty acid methyl esters. These come from the fats hence use of vegetable oil blah blah. These things have upto 30 carbon long chains and may be saturated or unsaturated, compared to the C12 average chain length in diesel these FAMEs will have a higher melting point.

Greeny you would likely only have to heat it up to remove the shit or add some petrol to dissolve it.

Edited April 20, 2007 by teonanacatl

[Greeny]

biodiesel is composed of FAMEs, fatty acid methyl esters. These come from the fats hence use of vegetable oil blah blah. These things have upto 30 carbon long chains and may be saturated or unsaturated, compared to the C12 average chain length in diesel these FAMEs will have a higher melting point.

Greeny you would likely only have to heat it up to remove the shit, it would melt or dissolve.

Possible but I don't see many people lighting fires under their gas tanks

[Rev]

i recall talk of converting the trucks at my last place of work to run on soybean oil

needed heater tanks to preheat oil

and you start and run down on conventional diesel

im sure there are many systems worth pursuing

[Torsten]

many biodiesels don't solidify at Victorian cold temperatures, but the canola and deep frier oil type ones do. These are the most commonly used ones and hence cause so many problems. Biodiesels are used in europe where it gets much colder and they don't have any problems with the cold. Why? because they understand the problem. You can get cheap conversion kits that will heat the fuel to keep it fluid and in europe everyone installs these.

These kits are not new. They have been used in Russia for many years as there are regions in russia that get so cold that petrodiesel solidifies. So, you see, it is not really a problem with a fuel, but a problem with the lack of education. Just like ethanol damaging modern cars is only a matter of education. You can run 80% ethanol in any car s long as you replace a few rubber hoses with plastic ones. It's the perished rubber that is the problem, NOT the fuel. In some countries such as Brazil all cars are factory fitted with plastic hoses at no extra cost. It would cost manufacturers abut AU$80 to provide and fit plastic hoses for modern cars in australia. This is a ridiculous amount considering the millions spent on media campaigns about this issue.

[wisemonkey]

I have friends in Melbourne who run their cars on biofuels no worries. One of the problems is that the oils contain natural detergents and actually loosen all the gunk that previous diesel use has left behind and this gets stuck in the filter. This is only a temporary thing as long as the filter is replaced after each tank for the first three or four tanks, until all the gunk is gone, then it should be clean from thereon in. And yes diesel engines were originally designed for oils and fats.

[teonanacatl]

many biodiesels don't solidify at Victorian cold temperatures, but the canola and deep frier oil type ones do

That would make sense, these sorts of fats are saturated so pack together well, hence animal fat is a solid, vs unstaturated vegetable fats which are liquids. Same would apply to the fames made from each oil.

[Greeny]

Interesting Maybe I should convince work to offer one of these tank warming kits as an option for customers.

Would certainly fix the problem and move us a bit closer to a cleaner future. Would be good for the company aswell.

I really am getting sick of biodeisel call outs tho the stuff stinks something feirce

[Torsten]

if it stinks then it's probably deep fryer fat. Horrendous stuff.

Also, John Howard has single/simple mindedly redefined the term biodiesel by including fats from abbatoirs. These would be very icky. They are also more likely to solidify as they are not actually transesterified.

The kits are well know in germany and sweden, so sourcing them should not be difficult.

[Greeny]

Also, John Howard has single/simple mindedly redefined the term biodiesel by including fats from abbatoirs. These would be very icky. They are also more likely to solidify as they are not actually transesterified.

Yeah i remember the fat off cuts went to some alternative fuel place when I worked as a slaughterhand. Could never work out why until now

Also I would like to say that you can run 100% ethanol in cars if yes you change rubber hoses to plastic ones AND bore out your cylinders 5+ thou and put oversize rings on. In carbie cars you also need to add a larger carbie so that you have a bigger pressure drop in the venturie as ethanol does not vaporise as effectivly as petrol.

People have also said that using ethanol is unviable as it would take to much to make. Well you can make roughly 10000 litres an acre by using algae in theory. This info i found out on good old wikipedia.

I'll have to cut it short my sons calling for me

Greeny out

[kadakuda]

in canada they do similar thigns as you describe. but is always started on regular deisel.

many biodiesels don't solidify at Victorian cold temperatures, but the canola and deep frier oil type ones do. These are the most commonly used ones and hence cause so many problems. Biodiesels are used in europe where it gets much colder and they don't have any problems with the cold. Why? because they understand the problem. You can get cheap conversion kits that will heat the fuel to keep it fluid and in europe everyone installs these.

These kits are not new. They have been used in Russia for many years as there are regions in russia that get so cold that petrodiesel solidifies. So, you see, it is not really a problem with a fuel, but a problem with the lack of education. Just like ethanol damaging modern cars is only a matter of education. You can run 80% ethanol in any car s long as you replace a few rubber hoses with plastic ones. It's the perished rubber that is the problem, NOT the fuel. In some countries such as Brazil all cars are factory fitted with plastic hoses at no extra cost. It would cost manufacturers abut AU$80 to provide and fit plastic hoses for modern cars in australia. This is a ridiculous amount considering the millions spent on media campaigns about this issue.

Edited April 22, 2007 by kadakuda

[gecko]

Diesel did in fact design his engine to run on vege oil. Peanut.

Biodiesel can present a few probs, but with a bit of info and

playin around with it, can be easily sorted out.

When my brothers and I kill a few sheep for home consumption we keep all the fat.

lots of it on Damaras (fat tailed sheep).

Its rendered down then converted to BD.

We also supplement this with deep fryer fat.

You can really tell which fish n chip shops

flog the shit out of their oil

(cook at higher temps and longer between oil changes) by

the higher free fatty acid levels.

- I'll never eat from those greasepits again!-

this means you have to use more alkali to neutralise FFA's before

transesterification can take place.

it can increase the possibility of making soap and neccesitates more careful

cleaning of the BD.

we always wash BD with a fine mist of water, settle then filter.

When used in the ute, the fuel is passed through a heater that we've fitted.

It's made up of a small alloy block about the size of a matchbox.

Fuel line runs through one hole and coolant through another.

It's first heated via a glowplug at startup

then by the engine coolant via a thermostat once it reaches operating temp

at which stage the glowplug is automaticaly switched off.

BD is a very handy solvent and degreaser (Not a bad paint stripper either) so when

using it in an engine for the first time it'll remove all sorts crap from fuel lines and

tank left from petro diesel and quickly overwhelm the filters.

BD also attacks rubber, so its best to replace rubber fuel lines and

seals with a more suitable alternative like neoprene

one of the reasons that a lot of european cars with

modern high performance diesel engines, that are designed with BD in mind,

weren't imported here was the crappy quality standards of

Aust. petro-diesel fuel...

... warrenty issues.

the filters should be changed regularly.

its even worth putting in an extra.

one of the older style filters with a glass bowl .

glycerine, soap or water is visible at a glance and can be drained off

[Ace]

Out of interest, does any one know if these cooling/solidifying/engine-rooting oils could be avoided by using hemp seed oil as the basis for the biodeisel? Would it still have these qualities, or would they be avoided?

Perhaps it could be another reason to have hemp grown commercially in Oz? *ponders away in a thoughtful state of mind*

[Torsten]

hemp is actually all round a pretty average plant. Once you look into comparisons between it and other fibre and oil crops it really doesn't stack up too well. If it wasn' psychoactive it would have about as much of a following as jute or sisal and I can't imagine too many people beeing terribly familiar with either one of these.

BD is not 'engine rooting'. In fact it is better for engines than petrodiesel. It keeps the tank and the engine much cleaner and it is much more lubricating. To complain about incompatible rubber hoses as a negative for BD is just silly. I mean, if a petro fuel was available that was the same price as petrodiesel AND cleaned your engine out, car manufacturers would very quickly scramble to replace all rubber hoses at no cost. Rubber hoses are simply not a hurdle big enough to stop BD.

Hemp oil would most likely suffer from the same 'problems'.

[Ace]

See, I have been a bit unsure about the use of hemp for such appliactions - it has been given the name of being the worlds most useful plant, no doubt it'd have a few very useful applications, but surely not all round. I might have to do a bit more research into it...

[Greeny]

Perhaps a BD kit should be made available to australian truckers.

I will try to seriously talk about this with the guys at work especially the engineers. If you think about it BD usable truck engines could only boost Detroit Diesel Series 60 sales which. That in turn means more OT for me Horray. Also I am proud to announce MTU DDA is well in line for the new wave of emission laws set to come in soon with their new EGR (Exhast Gas Respiration) Engines.

Go Detroit Diesel

[wisemonkey]

Perhaps a BD kit should be made available to australian truckers.

I will try to seriously talk about this with the guys at work especially the engineers. If you think about it BD usable truck engines could only boost Detroit Diesel Series 60 sales which. That in turn means more OT for me Horray. Also I am proud to announce MTU DDA is well in line for the new wave of emission laws set to come in soon with their new EGR (Exhast Gas Respiration) Engines.

Go Detroit Diesel

Always Good to a see a Green mechanic. As mentioned in other post just remember palm oil is being planted on Orangutan Habitat and sold as vegetable oil. Make sure what you buy is not supporting this practice