peak soil

[hebrew]

This is a long analysis of bio-fuels, focusing on ethanol, but certainly considering bio-diesel. It's a reality shock for me to see the realities laid out like this, and to see that bio-fuels might cause even more harm to the environment than have petro-fuels. It's a long read and quite detailed, but interesting and quite eye-opening. If anyone has some good rebuttals to this, I'd love to know.

article

i took this from a friends blog, its an interesting read

Edited April 17, 2007 by hebrew

[teonanacatl]

I didnt get to read it all yet but interesting:) An issue with ethanol in fuel is it makes the fuel more soluble in water and so spills and leaks go alot further meaning more shit gets into underground water etc.

I dont see biodiesel as a solution as it still produces CO2 and its only worthwhile on the home scale. Same applies to hydrogen, loads of companies want to produce hydrogen then sell it for fuel, so they use normal electricity to generate it from water (somthing we have a shortage of atm) then sell it so not really gonna be much cheaper then fuel, then you run cars off it. The H2O produced would have to be condensed and reclaimed to make it worthwhile also more water would be produced then normal petrol so humidity around cities would rise. For hydrogen to be a good answer I think it would have to be generated in situ in the car. Can get some photoanodes that produce H2 and O2 from water when subject to light and they are about 12% efficient i think.

[foolsbreath]

A shoddy piece of jounalism

She has cited extreme examples and figures

She has focused on corn where there are much better sources of sugar which require very little processing and all byproducts can be used, corn however can be used to make bioplastics where all these problems would arise, I think she may be a little confused as she hasn't mentioned any of the other sources for bio fuels

Farmers can incorporate techniques to reduce most of the damaging practices she has cited, it is unlikely that huge expanses of land will be opened up for growing ethanol fuels, more of a land use change which will result in little change of the environmental footprint the land use already creates.

No biofuels are not the future, but it can be done in a way where it is far less damaging than she makes it out to be.

Organic content of the soil is not really a limiting factor of erosion, but the level of ground cover which can be easily managed by tillage practices (ie minimal)

As she indeed stated, only a small portion of the crop is required for the fermentation process (which she says makes far more evil and unusable byproducts than is actually an issue) which would leave the remaining cellulose based plant material to be reincorporated into the soil as stubble to maintain soil structure

I could pull most of what she has said to bits if I did a full critical review of that paper,

the most interesting part she has not mentioned at all is that actual waste can be utilised to make a large portion of bio fuels which would otherwise end up in a land fill breaking down and producing CO2 anyway. If it is completed in an anaerobic double ferment including a bacterial ferment the waste would end up almost microbiologically inert and the biproducts would have multiple end uses

Her energy accounting is poor at best and some of her sources pretty questionable, non the less, it gets one thinking about the energy debate.

Edited April 18, 2007 by foolsbreath

[Torsten]

while this is a pretty crappy piece of journalism, the actual problems do exist. I do not believe that biofuels should come from current high grade agricultural land, nor should it come from wilderness. To me biofuels are only an alternative if they can be produced on marginally useful land, which is currently used for inefficient cattle farming or similar environmental disasters.

Two styles of production I really like:

1) Oil production from weeds that grow on marginal land and have minimal water and nutrient requirements. eg Jatropha curcas

2) Oil production from rainforest trees eg Candlenut or more radically that tree that produces a biodiesel resin as a sap [name escapes me right now].

I think a mix of these options would be good. eg arid areas could grow jatropha and high rainfall areas could grow trees. The trees would also produce excellent timber and reduce greenhouse gases. No good farmland needs to be used and many cleared rainforest areas could be returned to being forests.

I think the use of palm oil, canola, wheat and corn is lazy, shortsighted and counterproductive. I feel that true biofuel enthusiasts should not accept them as alternatives to petrofuels.

I also feel that alcohols and octane-decane fuels will only occupy a niche market in the long term future. I think hydrogen [via solar] will definitely be the fuel for industry, solar will be the fuel for domestic electricity, and a variety of new technologies will sort out domestic heating. That leaves carbon fuels only for old vehicles and in industrial processes where there is no substitute. The sooner we run out of oil the better for all of us as we will finally put some serious money into the technologies.

[Rev]

i would think biogas would be the best?

if all you are extracting is carbon hydrogen and oxygen as alcohols

then all the sludge with all the nutes goes back on the same land

there would be less loss than current agriculture

of course unless its legislated for then it wont go back to the same land. it will become a commodity of its own and get squandered

Also theres no reason for biofuels not to co-exist with food production

palm oil plantation in malaysia are doing better now there are polycultures using cattle to eat down the weeds, which themselves are part of biodiversity, and this predation should lead to an increase in diversity at ground level

they are also experimenting with understorey cropping medicinal plants - like tongkat ali

as a perrenial crop its got a lot of things going in its favour

Canola - rape seed ,is on the other hand one of the very worst of all crops for disease and effect on soil fertility

Edited April 18, 2007 by Rev

[wisemonkey]

One of the reasons only touched upon in this article is that palm oil, often labelled vegetable oil is fast becoming the major source of biofuels worldwide as well as being put into many products we buy from the superrmarket. This is the single greatest contributor to deforestation in Indonesia & Malaysia destroying orangutan habitat and releasing vast amounts more CO2 than biofuels can ever save.

[teonanacatl]

palm oil is also wiping out princess/queen alexandria butterflies in PNG. Anyway I only see it as good when the oil is free/cheap and not grown for that purpose, needs to be a waste product.

[phloom]

I might buy an electric pushy....

sounds like a pretty easy solution to many problems. instead of trying to produce the same amount of kilojoules from crops that we get from fossil fuels, just lessen the need for those kj.

You might say thats all quite obvious, but is it??...in terms of commodity, what really has value these days? pushing large weights across the surface of the planet?

I think we are slowly pulling our heads out of the muck and realising how much value chemical energy has, and in turn we will prioritise how we spend it. I don't know about youse but i reckon its a management problem....not so much engineering.

But...social inertia is a huge factor.

[everything is under control...everything is under controolllllllll] ;)

??

Edited April 20, 2007 by phloom

[Jesus On Peyote]

how about bicycles? everyone would be alot healthier.

2 birds with one stone.

[Rev]

i have one

but infrastructure is an issue

if u are in the city you risk being gassed all the way to work, or run down

out here a round trip to work is 57.5km of potholed rough sealed cattle truck dodging hard work

im still doin it now its cool - did i neglect to mention too stinkin hot 6 months a year

i like my bike

but for practicality id rather an EV as i have to cart things to and from work

if the range was 100km+ id buy one tomorrow

as i already run a fuel efficient runabout as the work vehicle and save the 2.5L for family/ long distance runs

with an EV i could use green energy and afford to invest in my own grid connected solar PV collectors - and it would pay dividends

and id change the other car over to diesel. better for the purpose it has and leaves an option of biofuels

wheres my bloody EV? grrr

Edited April 20, 2007 by Rev

[phloom]

yeah i know Rev,

You get the first of my experimental flying hydra mecha:p

sorry for fouling this thread, ima scientist....truly!

Edited April 20, 2007 by phloom

[teonanacatl]

ive got an electric bike, good thing but i do like pedaling. Pain in the arse to change the back tyre aswell. It does 25-30kph and does 80km per battery.

My experience discussing the whole ride instead of car thing is shit, most people like the ease of driving. What price would petrol have to reach for more people to say hey, stuff this car im riding to X.

[occidentalis]

My experience discussing the whole ride instead of car thing is shit, most people like the ease of driving. What price would petrol have to reach for more people to say hey, stuff this car im riding to X.

I received this in an email, the subject was "When petrol reaches $10 per litre". Personally I think $3-$4 will be enough to make more people think really seriously about it.

Edited April 20, 2007 by creach

[Torsten]

The diesel tree I mentioned above is Copaifera sp. It can produce 30-40L of fuel per year. The fuel component is tapped from the heartwood of the tree and does not affect the growth of the tree. The tree will still provide good forest cover and good milling timber for it's life. There are experimental systems to harvest mechanically, thus reducing labour input to nearly nothing. As no machinery is required for harvest there is also no need for straight row plantations, nor does the plantation have to be a monoculture. There is no reason why it can't be 50% Copaifera and 50% local rainforest, this providing habitat etc.

A big downfall for many oil crops is water and fertilsier requirements. This tree has a deep tap root which means it requires little of either once established.

Practical fuel yield is about 1200L per acre per year, which puts is slightly above Jatropha curcas in yield/acre. There have been trial plot getting over 4000L per acre per year.

The main component are terpenes, in particular turpentine.

The curious thing about this tree is that if you leave the oil unprocessed for 12 months is will polymerise and turn into Cobaifera resins, which is worth about 10 times as much on the incense market

[marsha]

this isnt really a solution to fuel emissions etc but if one doesnt feel any moral obligation to big mining and earth moving companies and drives a diesel then i suggest parking next to a resting ore train or bull dozer and filling up multiple barrels with nice free diesel you can get some very efficient electric pumps to do the job.

[devance]

I don't think that going to work unless all the hoopla is gone.

Just like saying this without any scientific proof.

http://www.asi.org/adb/02/09/he3-intro.html

http://www.asi.org/adb/02/09/he3-intro.html

[Greeny]

Crop litres ethanol/ha US gal/acre

Miscanthus 14031 1500

Switchgrass 10757 1150

Sweet Potatoes 10000 1069

Poplar Wood (hybrid) 9354 1000

Sweet Sorghum 8419 900

Sugar Beet 6679 714

Sugar Cane 6192 662

Cassava 3835 410

Corn (maize) 3461 370

Wheat 2591 277

So why would you use corn?

All info taken from Www.Wikipedia.com

Seems to me that their are far better crops to use

And it is entirely possible to modify current engines to run on 100% ethanol as i stated in my Biodeisel thread. Agreed the modifications are not exactly a cheap option BUT if you consider that an engine would be completely recondidtiond in the process it makes it an option to buy a second hand car at say $10g spend another $10g and bam a car that will last you and the environment a long time.

We could also think of using ethanol as a helping hand to our farmer buddies making it a far more viable to be a farmer.

[ENtiTY]

How pure would the ethanol have to be to be able to be used effectivly as a fuel?

If it were legal could one brew and still their own fuel?

[foolsbreath]

this isnt really a solution to fuel emissions etc but if one doesnt feel any moral obligation to big mining and earth moving companies and drives a diesel then i suggest parking next to a resting ore train or bull dozer and filling up multiple barrels with nice free diesel you can get some very efficient electric pumps to do the job.

When using a tree as a source of fuel, one must remember that the carbon in the fuel is actually already sequestered from the atmosphere. That means you are basically recycling carbon and your net emissions are nil (as long as you have not cut down a forest to plant these trees and are not mechanically harvesting)

I suppose that is true with fossil fuels too, except the return is a hell of a long time where as the Copaifera sp is producing and therefore sequestering that 40 lts of terpenes carbon per year

[foolsbreath]

How pure would the ethanol have to be to be able to be used effectivly as a fuel?

If it were legal could one brew and still their own fuel?

Essentially 99% should be used in blends and can also be used as a straight fuel at 99% and above

There is a thing called hydrated ethanol which is about 93% ethanol and 7% water at these concentrations they form an azeotrope and this fuel can be burnt alone and only at this ratio

[Greeny]

I got a few questions:

How expensive is ethanol currently in aus per litre?

Where in melbourne can I get this ethanol?

Are their laws which prohibit me from running a straight ethanol vehicle on the roads?

If not can i run Methanol lawfully instead?

Cheers

[occidentalis]

How expensive is ethanol currently in aus per litre?

We buy scientific grade ethanol for use in the lab at ~$3/L.

[Torsten]

How expensive is ethanol currently in aus per litre?

Ethanol used to be about $1.10/L. Then when it became an alternative fuel Howard started taxing it accordingly, so it is now pretty much exactly the same as petrol and actually moves with the petrol price.

You can get it at any large fuel distributor, such as BP or Shell. In 20L drums it is more expensive due to packaging, but in 200L drums it is the same as petrol.

[Greeny]

Ethanol used to be about $1.10/L. Then when it became an alternative fuel Howard started taxing it accordingly, so it is now pretty much exactly the same as petrol and actually moves with the petrol price.

You can get it at any large fuel distributor, such as BP or Shell. In 20L drums it is more expensive due to packaging, but in 200L drums it is the same as petrol.

Thats it im buying a VN-VS 5 Litre 5 speed getting a 355 stroker kit and a vortex supercharger. A bunch of plastic hosing, a new gasket kit and talking to my machine shop mate. Im gonna have the greenest street machine in aus. I'll try and get a licence plate "GREENY" aswell. Oh and paint it green.

The second I get my commodore paid of anyways. Come on overtime don't let me down now!

[teonanacatl]

you can make and distill your own for your car, need a reflux still that gives atleast 90% then you can buy these things called molecular seives which only molecules of a certain size can fit into so we use them in the lab to dry solvents, great thing is you can just chuck them back in the oven and reuse, they will remove alot more of the water. So now your at 95-97% maybe higher, to get more water out you need sodium..... so i would just leave it.

At homedistillers they have heaps of info about doing it yourself.

Edited April 24, 2007 by teonanacatl