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rkundalini

"Professional" & aboriginal ethnobotany

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Hmmm .... have been contemplating what I'm going to do with my life of late (coming close to completing a PhD in a field I don't think I want to stay in) and this is something I keep coming back to. Does anyone here have a particular interest or knowledge of ethnobotany of plants used by Australian aboriginals? Any suggestions for great works on the topic etc? Time to do some background reading, find out how people do/did it, eductaion, funding and so on.

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Guest reville

I'm looking at the same or thereabouts.

I have come across interest in australian enthnobotany in proffessional circles.

i met a young waoman a while back doing a post grad on scaveola (spelling?)from NW WA

on.And a guy named Peter bindon published a book not too long ago on useful bush plants of WA (once again most of the plant knowledge is centred on northern australia, though there is a bit on the SW) theres a number of people at the university of new england with research interests regarding botany and bioactive isolates.does anyone else have something to add to the jigsaw?

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Guest mulga

There are some excellent books around, but a real lack of information as well. Definetly there are no cohesive courses or discipline in 'ethnobotany' in Australia.

A bibliography I have put up is available at http://users.lycaeum.org/~mulga/biblio.htm. Peter Latz is one writer I'd highly recommend, though all the books mentioned I'd recommend.

There is a growing interest in the area of native plants, for horticulture, medicines, foods etc. Though these days they tend to be through private industry, like most 'scientific research', and develops in the secretive and competative world of commercial operations only. In regard to Aboriginal use, it is kind of different also because despite continuing problems, Aboriginal people are in general I think becoming a lot more aware of their own role in studying their traditional culture and plants, rather than an outsider studying them. Ethnobotany in general is changing in this way, from the 'civilised' studying the 'primitive people and their plants'. To a more generalised recognition, at least by some of us humans, of the value of continuing to look at plants and traditional knowledge about them and their potential importance in the future.

So some places do have good botany courses, horticulture and agriculture (Uni of New England is one, some TAFEs and colleges also tend to specialise in this area). The so called 'Cellulose Valley' project at Sth Cross Uni in Lismore is a kind of new 'plant technology park' especially aimed at developing the medicinal herb industry, native and exotic. Though the Uni does have courses in Naturopathic medicine, and is developing phytochemistry labs. There is actually no real courses in botany or phytochemistry or anything like that.

Obviously at other Uni's around the country, and even more probably at various 'technology parks' there is still research happening.

Though given the state of the world today, I think anyone with an interest in this area can forget about the good ol days when science was government funded and published in peer reviewed public forums all the time. Now private industry has much more sway over what kind of education and research is around, and if no-one can makes millions of dollars from it somehow, then it's unlikely that there will be much motivation for anyone to actually organise anything around it. Bushfoods for example are getting a bit of interest, but only as long as people feel there may be a commercial outcome from it, though often people involved are there for the love as much as the money.

Sad but true, for the many people who do have an interest in the area, that there is really not much chance of seeing things develop further in the short term.

Given that, people who haven't been formaly trained as ethnobotanists have simply taken on the research anyway, lived with Aboriginal people for years and simply published their research. As you mentioned Peter Bindon for example, he is an Anthropolgist who happened to have collected a wealth of information about ethnobotany and then published it. Many of the most recent authors of books are actually just botanists.

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The People and Plants site is one I can recommend as a good starting point. I've been interested in their work for some time, but lack the time to do anything more than dream...for the moment.

Unfortunately my browser setup didn't let me access their address from the data I saved from their site, but I think I got to People and Plants via the Royal Botanic Gardens at Kew site. If you have any trouble finding either of the above places using search engines let me know and I'll scour what is laughingly referred to as my memory.

Their work looks good, and the site itself was offering an online course, from the looks of my saved data. Just going over my files briefly got me wishing someone'd clone *me* off so I could send one of my extra selves out to study :-)

cya

darklight

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Originally posted by mulga:

Another link from a botanist at U Western Sydney.

interesting info

Peter Lister seems to be pretty knowledgeable guy in Ethnobotany, aboriginal affairs (and didj). Good thing you mentioned him, Mulga.

E D

smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Ed Dunkel (edited 03 May 2000).]

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I like the idea of going and living with the aboriginals, learning from them and publishing that information (if publishing is appropriate). Academia seems to be strongly oriented towards competitive one-up-manship and overly reductionist techniquesmode off>. It seems to me that there is so much to learn from indigenous peoples, especially in the field of psychoactive substances used by aboriginals, the use of which has been kept pretty secret. I respect their privacy, but that knowledge must be dying out and deserves to be recorded in a respectful manner. The only way to show the appropriate respect and to gain a real understanding of the world view of the people would surely be to live with them as if you were one of them for an extended time. Since australian plant species are pretty well known I wouldn't think a large amount of academic training beyond basic botany and identification would be of much use. This kind of method would be pretty impossible within academia but who needs them anyway if the main aim is simply to aquire and record the knowledge? Such "research" could be funded privately or publicly (ie the dole)...

phytochem followups would be more tricky but I understand there are private initiatives starting up in this area...

Anyway I feel pretty stupid aspiring to this as a city slicker who doesn't even know a single aboriginal but maybe one day...

Peter Lister's site looks interesting, thanks. Ditto for people and plants, http://www.rbgkew.org.uk/peopleplants/ .

Hmmm didj .. any other didj players here? Made my own PVC one a couple of years ago, saving up at the moment for a wooden one. Would be nice to make my own wooden one but I suspect it requires good playing & listening ability...

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A friend of mine crusied in from canada and started studying ethnobotany in cairns this semester. he has the ultimate goal to live with tribes in the gulf area to study their use of plants in combination to their spiritual beliefs. Exactly the opposite of the reductionist approach so frequently disliked. He had his work, projects and contacts pretty well all worked out even before he arrived.

His unprejudiced entry into the field has enabled him to enter pretty well right into it without overcoming many of the usual barriers. I wonder if we create these barriers ourselves by growing up here? It always appears to be easier to approach people where there were no previous unbalanced interactions. "Sorry" does not remove ALL the guilt.

I think it's just a matter of packing up and doing it.

As for the actual information....I don't think it is all that easy to bring much of the aboriginal information into the open. they generally do not want it publicised and many of their traditions are sacred and secret. To obtain such information would mean to gain their trust, but to publish it would mean to betray this trust. This is in my opinion the main reason why we havent' seen much of australian ethnobotany, especially th spiritual side of it. The aborginal wisdom would prohibit for much of the psychoactive knowledge to enter the uncontrolled public arena. It is only passed on to the youngsters as they mature and recognise the significance of these rites. To throw this information at white people without the controls and settings of a tribal system would probably amount to an abuse of their sacraments.

obviously this was a similar situation when Wasson and Hofman made their first trips into Mexico, but their persistence payed off. But we should never forget at what price. While almost all of us are aware of the accomplishments of Wasson and Hofman, the shaman who actually opened up these secrets to the rest of the world was punished severely by her own people. Maria Sabina received little in compensation for getting her house burnt down and for loosing much of her traditional status.

The close-knit tribal structure of the aboriginals prevents this kind of renegade behaviour we are hoping ellicit.

maybe we are going about it the wrong way....

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Guest mulga

Good points T. I'd have to agree that perhaps it is easier for 'outsiders' to do things when previous social situations cause distrust and problematic interactions between people, such as Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal Aussies find themselves in.

Though I'd also agree that it is as much about making things happen as looking around to find courses or other things that you can just sign up for.

However humans have a very complex and universal relationship with plants, no race or culture really holds anything over any other race. even though it is hard to realise how important the worlds flora is for human survival when you live in a highly urbanised and anthropocentric culture.

People always have and probably always will investigate plants for their properties, decorative, medicinal, nutritive, entheogenic, structural etc.... Hoffman and Wasson really are no more or less 'legitimate' in their search for interesting aspects of human interaction with plants. Notwithstanding the points you made about Maria Sabina (who also noted that the 'little mushrroms' started to speak english to her after she had been involved with the Europeans).

Given the structure and knowledge of modern human society there is a relative plethora of means of obtaining information about plants that indigenous people, at least on the face of it, could never have been able to use. Humanity's botanical knowledge is effectively the entire world now (as opposed to a very detailed local knowledge, much of which is lost), we can make relationships between related species from different sides of the world, or relate specific compounds found in unrelated species that already have a known activity. Aside from ongoing experimentation and personal studies by thousands of 'amatuers' all over the world.

This is an interesting topic, but the problem I feel to an extent is the issue of where we want to be going with this. Are we looking to form a situation where different people own or possess certain plants or use of them, defending their property rights through the legal system and highly regulated systems, for what is probably one of the most complex areas of human life in regard to the practical survival of human beings. I would have no doubt that any regulatory system is likely to be at least ineffective, or at worst totally disasterous.

To my mind the point should be to recognise the very intrinsic nature of human interest and experiementation with plants, and indeed that such a universal aspect of human nature is something that ties us all together, no matter what race, creed, culture or language. I guess what I'm trying to say is that in many ways I feel we need to get to a more universal view of human/plant interactions.

Of course without taking into consideration factors and realities such as you mention T, then we aren't likely to really address the issues and concerns people do feel, justified or not. To my mind it is at least important to address these issues. Though again I think it is important to build a more universal and integrative view, rather than look towards an adversarial approach. Courts and the legal system invariably are of most use to those most well educated and financially able. Many people feel alienated from the legal process, and really it benefits lawyers more than any of their clients to have a difficult adversarial way of dealing what are really important issues for people.

People from certain cultures may have rights over their own relationship with plants and knowledge of them, but can they stop others from developing their own relationship with them? Does the fact that others do 'profane' certain plants stop others from holding them sacred? (does the fact that when man walked on the moon they 'profaned' the religous and cultural attitudes of other people who hold the moon sacred mean that the moon is no longer sacred to any other human being?)

Whilst I can se that there are problems regarding commercial applications coming from some knowledge and plants. Though I'd argue that private possession of plants or properties of them by corprorate interests shouldn't be allowed. All these crap stories about how companies wouldn't do the reseacrh unless they can get exclusive control is missing the point. The point being that humans are naturaly curious and interested in these things, discovery and challenge are exciting to humans, well at least some. My personal view is that if the pharmaceutical companies didn't do it, then the thousands of people who have a passion and interest in the field, from all cultures, all over the world would take on the research. Probably willing to do it for a lot less monetary results and more for the enquiry, knowledge and understanding. Unfortunately the corporate approach is so overwheleming that it tends to drive the agenda and the reactions we are seeing, whilst focussing legitimately on the concerns of peoples knowledge being ripped off for private corporate gain. Fails to some extent to understand the fundamental interest the area holds for 'ordinary' people all over the world, directly and indirectly, and the possibilites contained in a global population of passionate plant lovers.

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Thanks T & M for your very stimulating discussion. I don't really feel qualified to add much to that smile.gif. Two comments, though. Firstly I understand the point of view that the rituals are sacred & secret for a reason. However, I'm scared that the knowledge is dying out and undoubtedly knowledge about some of the rituals has already disappeared, which is a terrible thing. A difficult issue. Secondly dmcd over at ethnobotany.yage.net just started up a discussion about intellectual property and plants so I won't bother repeating my comments about the topic here. One further thought though: I wonder if one could form an organisation which would patent every scrap of plant & chemistry information it was able to, and then let that information be freely used -- in order to get in first and stop those damn corporations from profiting from knowledge that should be free.

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Guest mulga

To clarify my ideas a little.

It is a little difficult to know exactly what is the best way to go, though essentially I'm arguing against a regulatory system that is derived from private possession of knowledge, or indeed genotypes, specific genetic 'blueprints'.... which is the reality that large industrial pharmaceutical and industrial agricultural companies would love to see and to a large extent have obtained.

Regualtion is something of a necesity, or at least awareness of the means by which reasonably sustainable practices are used in relation to plants. Rather than just open slather for everyone to use whatever they want. Though I think that especially in places like Australia, protection through National Parks and Nature reserves is far more effective as a protective measure, than would some sort of generalised regulation of all plant material be.

There are problems related to self-regulation in many areas of human endeavor as well. Though I would hope that given the level of communication that is possible today, that open debate and discussion for the rest of time is the best way to really understand the many possibilities and situations relating to people the bio-diversity and 'sustainable' use of the botanical world. It is an issue we can't avoid.

As to wether people should be able to hold others accountable to their own concepts of sacredness seems impossible for any human to do anything about these days. With so many humans around, it is more than likely, and indeed is almost a cornerstone of what I might vaguely term 'secular scientific society' to actually question all sorts of sacred cows and 'traditions'. I've no doubt that whatever I feel might be a sacred thing is sure to be held in contempt by someone else on the planet, possibly millions of them even. That's life in the modern world. I think all of humanity has to come to terms in some way with the fact that each of us can only develop our own relationship to sacred space/things. That ultimately it is up to us as individuals to realise that despite what the rest of people do, we can still have our own concepts about life (and work to build and support a space within society that can be a manifestation of those beliefs, individually and collectively if you've got a few other people with the similar beliefs) without having to force others to hold exactly the same things in the world to be sacred, and because the rest of the world doesn't hold these same things sacred, that it doesn't by necesity detract from our perception of it.

So even when I hear that a tribe of people (I think some native Americans actually were arguing against landing men on the moon because of it's sacredness in their religious beliefs) and can see the point. I'd also say that sacredness is deeper than the mundane world of rockets and men parading around the solar system looking for some sort of understanding. The moon is still a sacred place for those who wish to see, it is deeper than the footprints that a few men left on the moon, but it would be a pity to see someone has left their muddy footprints right in the foyer of your 'temple'.

[This message has been edited by mulga (edited 04 May 2000).]

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If one was to accept the rights of one part of the community to have certain rights over a plant, then this would entirely justify the current position of drug plant prohibition. And I am sure that most of us agree on the stupidity of this concept. For what we prohibit and regard as evil in our society is sacred and live-giving in another. When I made my comments about the way natives protect their plants and rites, then I wasn't actually agreeing fully with their views. Their rites are definitely their cultural heritage, but the plants are free for everyones use. This does not mean that they have to tell us about it though. Just the same that we don't tell others the truth about the plants we prohibit, they tell us little or nothing about the plants the revere.

On another point, I think that the whole issue of plant rights and registrations is very exaggerated. Most of the multinational type research that is going on is for new products developed from old plants. While I think it would be nicer to have this as public domain knowledge, I have to agree, that a lot of reaesearch would not be done if it wasn't for this greed. And the end result usually only affects those people who choose to live within the boundaries of this market anyway.

Example: I take a ginger extract for arthritis. There is a standardised product which is 'fully' researched, which is about 10 times the price of the generic product. It is entirely my choice which product i want to use. I can pay the extra when I want to get a guaranteed product, or I can take my chances with the cheapo. To be honest I do both. At times when I need to have guaranteed relief i will use the pharma product, while most other times I will use the cheapo. I am paying for a service and a guarantee, but only when I want to. the consumer makes the ultimate choice.

This service is an important one though and i am gald it was available. Anyone who has tried to establish the efficacy or efficiency of a herbal remedy for a sporadic or transitory ailment will understand the difficulties. The standardised product made i possible to establish this and saved me lots of time, money and pain, while at the same time it established that it didn't work for another member of my family.

As for plant variety rights, I think it will get so messy that it won't make any difference anymore anyway, while at the same time fuelling an illegal 'counterfeiting' industry.

Whenever society tries to impose too much control, it will invariable loose control. It is an automatic process and there is no need to get too upset about the workings of it in the meantime ;-)

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so what will mean for peopel know about every plant in the world especaly australian natives

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I like the idea of going and living with the aboriginals, learning from them and publishing that information (if publishing is appropriate). <disillusionment mode on>Academia seems to be strongly oriented towards competitive one-up-manship and overly reductionist techniques</disillusionment mode off>. It seems to me that there is so much to learn from indigenous peoples, especially in the field of psychoactive substances used by aboriginals, the use of which has been kept pretty secret. I respect their privacy, but that knowledge must be dying out and deserves to be recorded in a respectful manner. The only way to show the appropriate respect and to gain a real understanding of the world view of the people would surely be to live with them as if you were one of them for an extended time. Since australian plant species are pretty well known I wouldn't think a large amount of academic training beyond basic botany and identification would be of much use. This kind of method would be pretty impossible within academia but who needs them anyway if the main aim is simply to aquire and record the knowledge? Such "research" could be funded privately or publicly (ie the dole)...

phytochem followups would be more tricky but I understand there are private initiatives starting up in this area...

Anyway I feel pretty stupid aspiring to this as a city slicker who doesn't even know a single aboriginal but maybe one day...

Peter Lister's site looks interesting, thanks. Ditto for people and plants, http://www.rbgkew.org.uk/peopleplants/ .

Hmmm didj .. any other didj players here? Made my own PVC one a couple of years ago, saving up at the moment for a wooden one. Would be nice to make my own wooden one but I suspect it requires good playing & listening ability...

G`day Didge brudda bin long time for a reply to your call for any other players ,

better late than never aye bloke ,

its a long journey from the dreamtime to cyberspace but i am here now and its truly an ethnobotanical instrument in the altered states achieved when playing for long periods 2-4+ hours

and the plants dig it too mate with many experiments with positive results , same on the body ,

have been very forunate for it to be my work ,life ,passion its many things a chill out , a stimulant ,a bridge between people ,opens doorways to many levels of reality an awesome gift from the nature spirits

I have a didge , art ,bushtucker, herb shop in Noosa Heads in QLD nowdays after 12 years at Eumundi markets called Primal Vibes and have free how to play guides on my website same name for interested explorers enjoy the rewarding magic carpet ride ,keep on blowin brudda

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