Use of psychedelics in Australian Aborignial cultures?

[AndyAmine.]

Heard of this with some trees in tasmania which exude a sweet sap.

The wait was to allow the sap to ferment.

I remember hearing something similar on TV from a guy in Bali, he went up to what looked like a big plam, drilled a hole in the base, poured in water, came back a bit later and drank in.

The interesting thing was that they said that it took a few hours before you felt the effcts because the fermented while in your stomach...

I have asked a few people about this, even my balaneise uncle but no luck, any one know what it is?

[Torsten]

greendreams - great posts!!

I've only been to the centre a few times in my life, but on my last trip I saw gibber plains [pic 1 & 3] and suddenly the whole dot painting thing became crystal clear to me. The glare of the plains [not to mention the sandy wind] means you have to keep your eyes down. So for hours and hours all you look at is the gibber. I was seeing dots after just 20 minutes of walking around in this. It would be etched on the mind forever if you had to cross a gibber plain for several days.

After chewing some pituri I found that the inebriation made an even stronger impression of the gibber plain on my mind. I started seeing shapes moving as if looking at apopulated landscape from above. And as the dot painting of central australia are generally from a straight down perspective it all started making sense.

Then there are the sand textures of the dunes that transsect the gibber every now and then.

There is certainly more to pituri than just nicotine. I think the tropane content is being largely underestimated. Given that other plants in that area deliver pure nicotine wihtout the tropane component I can't see how at least these particular tropanes did not play a major role in the use of pituri [Duboisia hopwoodii].

As for the speculation about acacia ash that is used with pituri being of any entheogenic value, this is simply not the case. Acacia saligna is one of only a handful of hardwood species growing in that region. It is also the only one where I would not expect some toxins [other than cyanide which burns readily], and quite simply it is the only practical firewood in that area. The other trees do not produce branches that area as easy to break off or as convenient to collect. The folks at the camp would automatically collect more than 90% of their firewood from Acacia saligna. It also produces an incredibly fine white ash and usually had no bark by the time it is collected for firewood. This makes for the smoothest ash. And just to prove the point I consumed the ash with various tryptamines without any potentiation.

Nicotine is a decadent drug, while tropanes require strong social cohesion to feature well in any culture. I think tropane use would have been eradicated by the socially destructive effect of white settlers. I would not expect any tropane use to be prominent today, but I would be very surprised if it was not a major feature of certain rites - either as ritual drug or anaesthetic. This applies as much to the tropanes in pituri as it does to D.myoporoides.

There aremany psychoactive plants in the desert, including some I would expect to be rich in beta-carbolines, but as passionate as I used to be about the idea of tryptamine influence on central Australian art, the more I am now convinced that this is wishful thinking.

[Vertmorpheus]

I tend to keep a fair track of myself in a birdseyeview sense.... hadn't really thought about it til then, weird how some things are just embedded in the worldview and some aren't.

I reckon theres more to just about any seemingly simple plant drug than meets the eye, or the chromatograph.. and too often I think we neglect the basic physical let alone the inner or social state of typical users of it.

The sweet sap thing... that palm in indo is the toddy palm, used to make a brew which is distilled into arak etc (lotsa names, paintstripper really)... same as the one they get the palm sugar (jageri?) you see at chinatown etc. There's something called the wine palm in the same neck o the woods but whether its the same one or not I don't know, certainly palms around here get al ot of bee action on flowers, lots of bugs creeeping in n out of the trunk structure after shelter and water... guess they'd host their fair share of microgribblies capable of sending something rank enough to be entertaining. On a side note, too much green coconut will give you the legendary shits for the evening

The ash thing... seems to be more prevalent in far regional or central mobs, but then it's hard to discount as something that coastal groups did onceuponatime... certainly the ppl involved aren't thick, who'd want to be tripping balls all day every day just from what you use to season the rootail? (ok present company excepted buncha hippies geeze i dunno). At any rate, anything burnt to ash doesn't tend to contain much in the way of anything amusing, otherwise Potash would cost a lot more eh? :D

Wishful thinking...not quite sure how to take that to be honest. I'm taking the complimentary as I'm sure is intended Bit like being a decent athlete and ppl feelin a lil let down that you're not on the juice or something. Dunno.But I like your own take on the dot painting thing...the macro/microcosm thing has much to do with it.great line of thought in general, that one...but easy to do ya head in on haha.

Guess we have to remember that australiais an old, old place, things are largely done in the most energy efficient way if left to their own devices and life here can be tough enough without stuffing about making chemical you don't "need" as a plant just for the benefit of passing bipedal types. Also, that we are looking for a definitive answer on a question spanning millions of people over tens of thousands of years... I don't think we'll be getting anything too definite anytime soon :D but yeah, have to agree that deep down, its a much more clearheaded and internalised place than somewhere like south america would seem to be...beyond some basic stim plants to cope with distance and time perception, rhythm etc, I can't say I expect much to be found in any "easy" sense.

Re: communities , petrol...sad stuff. Unless you've seen those places you can never, ever begin to really imagine what they are like... our own lil third world nations... fucked up places but sometimes home to some very very genuine, open, hopeful people.But the "towns" (if you can call em that) are broken, toxic places for dogs to live let alone human beings.Plenty of ads to sponsor some kid in africa but nothing about our own examples (incidentally world vision does have sponsorship arrangements with some communities arranged, check it out if ya interested)

keep dreamin all the same

GD

[marsha]

i suspect ipomoea muelerii was utilised even if found accidentally as a food turning out to be medicine as it is everywhere in creeks of pilbara and if made into a paste in same manner acacia seeds are i suspect someone may experience the giidy effects of lsa! it seeds heavily tho just a hunch that common "blak fellas were afraid of such "medicines/sorceries " and only intrusted such journeys to medicine men /sorcerers of tribes who kept info even more guarded but all is speculation and a hunch i suspect if one was to eat of muelerri in the natural setting and was open to the spirit of the dreaming then maybe secrets could be revealed or if a large chunk of active acacia was thrown on a fire and we sat around tapping sticks and playing didge maybe more enlightenment could be gifted to us but sheesh all is speculation who knows ;)

[marsha]

possibly they needed no halucinogenic help ? low water intake and fasting due to low food intake may help them see whats special and possibly they were in a state of pure dreaming until they were so rudely awoken .......?

all my speculation and guess work so worth zilch

[Torsten]

At any rate, anything burnt to ash doesn't tend to contain much in the way of anything amusing, otherwise Potash would cost a lot more eh? :D

LOL.

You're right that most ashes are simply used for their alkaline properties. I've read of some ashes that remain toxic after burning, but I did not pay attention to what the constituent was [and it wasn't an australian plant anyway].

Wishful thinking...not quite sure how to take that to be honest.

This community would love to think that the whole world took mushrooms, did ayahuasca, and smoked ganja. Reality sometimes gets in the way of this wishful thinking .

The connection between the central oz dot paintings and the [for most of us] very similar art styles of south american indigenous peoples somewhat supported the assumption that the dot painting must be tryptamine induced. I had my first doubts about this when looking at some dot paintings while on ayahuasca and not finding any special sense or atraction in them like I do in amazonian art work while on tryptamines. Indigenous art usually represents their rituals extremely well, so when art and sacrament don't combine well then I get my doubts.

Anyway, when I saw the gibber plain it all made sense. Such a hostile environment and such incredible distances, combined with the practicalities of the environment simply means that you look down a hell of a lot. It's really trippy to be surrounded by this gibber for as far as you can see, and much further.

So, by wishful thinking I just mean that the harsh realities of the environment are a much more reasonable and obvious explanation than the hope that aboriginal culture might be based on a tryptamine ritual like it is in south america.

I'm taking the complimentary as I'm sure is intended Bit like being a decent athlete and ppl feelin a lil let down that you're not on the juice or something.

LOL, just because DMT doesn't feature in central australian culture, doesn't mean that other drugs didn't! Virtually all indigenous cultures took some form of hallucinogen or strong deliriant, so I would be surprised if this was any different in australia. My point was strictly about the dot painting though. Personally the gibber connection suddenly brought a whole lot more sense and understanding to my appreciation of aboriginal art. Before it was an abstract technique to me, but now I can connect to why it was used.

Obviously on this forum we get excited about cultural justifications for taking drugs. I guess it is because we grow up being taught it is OK for indigenous people to take certaind drugs, but it is not OK for us to do so. So when we think of dot painting being connected to tryptamine use, then we also get ideas about the legal privileges this can afford. Just look at the peyote church, or the tribes in the amazon.

Guess we have to remember that australiais an old, old place, things are largely done in the most energy efficient way if left to their own devices and life here can be tough enough without stuffing about making chemical you don't "need" as a plant just for the benefit of passing bipedal types.

Yes, I agree. Mostly. I think much of indigenous culture is shaped by the essentials and the conditions. However, there are also rituals. Penis subscision for example is not strictly energy efficient or logical. It might help with natural selection, but I would have thought endurance lifestyles in the desert were enough for that. So, rituals certainly would include drugs such as deliriants and hallucinogens. Not on a daily basis or even as entertainment, but as rites of passage, or seasonal rituals etc

beyond some basic stim plants to cope with distance and time perception, rhythm etc, I can't say I expect much to be found in any "easy" sense.

That's pretty much what I thought until I got pituri. Pituri certainly lends itself as a stimulant, but there are recorded preparation methods that intentionally remove the majority of the stimulating nicotine. So, if they weren't after the nicotine, then what? Pituri has a fair amount of tropane effect. Even a single leaf will fully constrict the throat. In fact, I have given it to quite a few people and no one can handle more than 2 or 3 leaves at once. Not because of the nicotine, but because of the tropanes.

I think there is a lot more to pituri than we know at this point.

In WA there are also several deliriants and inebriants used. Some pretty obscure stuff that doesn't seem very nice. There are also anagesics used in many areas that are not just analgesics but also inebriants. Even in the pituri area there are records of such an inebriating anagesic. And it seems it wasn't just used for pain either ;)

I think the whites and especially the church has managed to eliminate most knowledge of ritual drug use. Because the missions became a lifeline for many indigenous people, the combination of basic needs, generational separation and religious brainwashing would not have left a lot of rituals intact. And certainly drug use would have been the most difficult to reconcile with the church.

[chilli]

Hi Tonic,

I agree, lots of their paintings and artworks are very reminiscent of Ayahuasca paintings I have seen.

Here is an example. Though they are different I can see distinct similarities.

Graham Hancock

Pablo Amaringo

Does anyone agree?

Well there's black people and dots, but beyond that, not really. Nice pics though.

___________________________

Hi shroomytoonos,

yeah, I tried that once, but it didnt do anything... maybe I didnt inhale enough... maybe wrong sort...are all babies psychoactive? the one i smoked was Scottish, would this make any difference?

Hehe, its peurile I know, but even after reading the rest of this gargantuan post, I'm still chuckling over this...

____________________________

Hi Torsten,

Virtually all indigenous cultures took some form of hallucinogen or strong deliriant, so I would be surprised if this was any different in australia...

I think the whites and especially the church has managed to eliminate most knowledge of ritual drug use.

Isn't it more likely that it hallucinogenic use either never existed, or died out long before colonization, or was restricted to only a few small tribes, and then a few individuals within those tribes, than that the knowledge was actively destroyed by white Christians? I think this seems like a long shot, especially when you consider that they were seeking to root out indigenous culture in general, and yet much knowledge has survived.

[-YT-]

"Hi Torsten,

Isn't it more likely that it hallucinogenic use either never existed, or died out long before colonization, or was restricted to only a few small tribes, and then a few individuals within those tribes, than that the knowledge was actively destroyed by white Christians? I think this seems like a long shot, especially when you consider that they were seeking to root out indigenous culture in general, and yet much knowledge has survived."

Its a long shot to say the use of sacred plants never existed or died out long before colonization.. when there are still Indigenous peoples today who still practice intitiation rites and such using plants in Australia, obviously things have changed. The knowledge is/was held by the men of higher degree of intitation and rites and as colonisation took hold with the push for christianity, taking of land, breaking of families disease/sickness and alcohol. With all of this many forgot and lost the way of proper living with the land and spirit.

The rooting out of indigenous culture came from all of this and more so a need to assimilate, to make like white mans image.. If one considers that the Indigenous culture here stood unhibited for 30,000years or more and then consider within 200 years a complete breaking down of culture, knowledge, family associations and one of the most important factors the law of the ancestors and land for living proper. Alot of knowledge has been retained in certain areas, but much much more has been lost for a people who had over 50 words for one animal alone at its different stages in life and growth with the land.

[Anodyne]

Why are people always so curious about this? I personally doubt that DMT was ever used traditionally, at least as a widespread thing, but even if it was, why do we need to know about it? So much of Aboriginal culture has been pickled & labelled & stuck in museums - and while it can be a tragedy for knowledge to be lost altogether, I think it's even worse when it turns into stuff like shaman tours, or doing traditional islander tattoos on Irish backpackers. If they did use DMT or psilocybin, I say let them keep it a secret. Aboriginal communities get enough shit already about the individuals with "substance abuse problems" - can you imagine how it'd be if it were suddenly shown on Today Tonight or some such garbage that "getting fucked up" on illicit drugs is traditional for kooris.

I know some people want traditional use to be proven to show that these drugs are harmless, but seriously, do you really think that's going to happen? Look at the other drugs that we know were taken - nicotine & the tropanes are hardly harmless, are they? Use alone doesn't prove safety. Also, do you really think the government would backflip on this? They refuse to apologise for stealing the kids, but they'll apologise for banning a few psychedelics? Don't think so.

And as for all the whities who want traditional DMT use to be established so that they can feel justified in carrying on some sacred Australian cultural practice, I don't even know where to begin. If you need to justify your drug use to yourself by pretending you're some koori-nouveau medicine man, I'd say you're in trouble.

Alright, rant over.

[chilli]

"Hi Torsten,

Isn't it more likely that it hallucinogenic use either never existed, or died out long before colonization, or was restricted to only a few small tribes, and then a few individuals within those tribes, than that the knowledge was actively destroyed by white Christians? I think this seems like a long shot, especially when you consider that they were seeking to root out indigenous culture in general, and yet much knowledge has survived."

Its a long shot to say the use of sacred plants never existed or died out long before colonization.. when there are still Indigenous peoples today who still practice intitiation rites and such using plants in Australia, obviously things have changed. The knowledge is/was held by the men of higher degree of intitation and rites and as colonisation took hold with the push for christianity, taking of land, breaking of families disease/sickness and alcohol. With all of this many forgot and lost the way of proper living with the land and spirit.

The rooting out of indigenous culture came from all of this and more so a need to assimilate, to make like white mans image.. If one considers that the Indigenous culture here stood unhibited for 30,000years or more and then consider within 200 years a complete breaking down of culture, knowledge, family associations and one of the most important factors the law of the ancestors and land for living proper. Alot of knowledge has been retained in certain areas, but much much more has been lost for a people who had over 50 words for one animal alone at its different stages in life and growth with the land.

It sounds like you didn't read my question very carefully.

[hebrew]

i agree with anodyne here. well said.

and i have a question for greendreams, are you indigenous? if so where are your people from? what is there name.

i ask as it sounds by your writing that you coming from an indigenous POV, however you also sound like an anthropolgist.

i wonder where your information comes from. you have the information but there is no spirit, are we being "experts" here while we pretend to know about indigenous POV's but only know them from a "white" view of information, does that make sense? for me it is unclear where you come from with your knowledge, by the language you use.

i bring this up as i been discussing this thread with a good friend and he wished to know so i write this here.

[husk]

And as for all the whities who want traditional DMT use to be established so that they can feel justified in carrying on some sacred Australian cultural practice, I don't even know where to begin. If you need to justify your drug use to yourself by pretending you're some koori-nouveau medicine man, I'd say you're in trouble.

that's a bit slack. first of all 'whites'? some real 'open' ppl on this forum! moving on...

i think ppl are interested because of all the acacia and fungi in this country and if it was used. umm does that suffice dude?

i don't really care if it was but i hate this attack on (it must be called such) 'non idigenous' ppl having an interest in somthn other than what is going on now and in their own place, like any interest would only be for exploitative or self fulfilling reasons.

i had a real (now slowly dying) want to learn the really old ways the indigenous bunch from this land live and lived.

the more modernised places in this land, that also have a lot of other different coloured skinned ppl living in them (have u noticed?) are separated from what goes on with the indigenous ppl especially those that are really remote and i think (finally) the majority concensus now sees folks wanting to find out for everyone's benefit how it is/was.

but of course there are ppl like u to hinder it.

thanks heaps

mind warping substances are effective for (any) ppl living in a detached-from-possible-spirit realm-of nature-area/lifestyle because they can cut through (quickly) a whole lot of long learned and well taught ideas and perceptions and can offer those ppl another way of looking at the world. sure a lot of ppl may start out just experimenting and getting high but can it not progress from there?

i might remind u that spirituality and commonality and animality are given/allowable attributes to ALL humans, and that maybe ppl like yrself should encourage others to continue seeking out other alternatives to living/learning/seeing! no?

ps. "don't call me white! don't call me white!"

x peace

[hebrew]

first of all 'whites'

maybe european would have been abetter word but i noticed that when blackfella was used noone picked up on that term.

hmm anyway.

[husk]

first of all 'whites'

maybe european would have been abetter word but i noticed that when blackfella was used noone picked up on that term.

hmm anyway.

'blackfella'. i didn't notice that...

but

umm 'european'...what? i suppose i would be what Anodyne refers to as 'white' but i am beigey-brown and i've never even been to europe!?

although a few Jewish ppl i know (don't worry they loooove being calling that!!) say i have a more 'Jewish' nose than they do??

perhaps it maybe from europe, but i can't confirm most prolly not though

x

Edited March 20, 2007 by husk

[Vertmorpheus]

wow, some kind of cosmic shift in here eh? gettin a little grumpy.

but all that can slide... being asked to explain "who i am" is a bit weird, but comes up a bit...so here goes...

I am an australian citizen of indigenous and northwestern european extraction, raised with a strong family focus on the sensible way to do things without pissing off all n sundry.If asked to draw a line in the grey mud most of us are composed of, I'm a blackfella (a term without any real connotations either way apart from denoting a certain familiarity with em)..but in more enlightened circles or so I like to think I freely describe myself as a hybrid Australian (just like most aussies on that count).... some of the previous posts sounds like me as it is me...some of it sounds like ppl in communities as its from ppl in communities...and some of it sounds like anthro as well...we are discussing anthro eh? that, and mum studied it , so i have a fairly mixed bag of things inherited, things deducted myself, and things read from books written by anthros etc. indig aussies as I know them have ranged from schoolkids, lands council nobs, very well educated urbanites, community people, a whole range of people. If ya want my pidgin from up north is still pretty good.. if sounding "white" is a problem or something?. people wise its wirajuri and nanawal from coastal nsw, down south a bit further north yass etc.But then oddly enough most knowledge of that area is either family hand down stuff, or from the books etc ...whereas the cape york , the straits and the local "dreaming festival fanatics" mobs are what I know more about personally.I've lived from orange to blacktown, paramatta to dorrigo, townsville, thursday island, brissie... and been toa hundred flyshit corro towns called "communities" in between.. If we want to talk "but have no spirit"...thats a fairly offensive thing to say to be honest..but people will draw conclusions on the evidence available to them at the time... can't be arsed arguing the toss over that one, we all do it...but *ack*..I don't know where to start with that one... would my ideas and tids n tads of info be more credible if i had a front tooth awol and some bone ash scarification work? stuck with the "ay cuz youembego knockim goanna on 'ead ay?" Really not sure if thats what ya meant, but there ya go.

I get into the odd tangle online due to my habit of using words like "intraspatial" and "i'll be farked" in the same sentence. I'm not on here to create, maintain or sell an image, I'm really just me, and different things prompt different responses from the various "mes" inside the "Greater Me". I admit it'd save trouble if i picked from the standard "macro" personalities available online...yknow, the sage knower, the cheeky questioner, the snide remarker... but I'd feel a bit limited rangewise.At any rate, as long as people expect you to sound/type/act/feel a certain way due to accident of genetics, we're all being held back. Put Clifford Possum and Geoff Clark in the same room and tell me they're the "same".Charlie Perkins and Anthony Mundine...

The big funny haha shit in this is that most of my bushie mannerism and general ockerisms AND my more technicalisms come from my parents first n foremost, who are both working class in origin, both holding tertiary quals,are both ex military, dads is the mostly white side n mum's is the mostly black side,but I haven't grown up in an area of the world that favours looking right into how the welsh got things done haha... both worked for a LONG time in fairly senior possies in ATSI affairs...and they sound a lot like me...whattatheoddsothat? Ditto my brothers, both in various forms of govt (in very very different capacities). Let's hope noone works out they can spell so can't be either indig or informed about indig people, and sometimes use aussieisms so they can

t be educated, informed citizens with a vested interest at many levels in indig culture and issues.From words alone, I'd reckon 99 percent of members on here to be fully quald chems and biologists...but that ain't the case is it? They still know their shit though , least as far as their own experience goes.And if you or your mate have any real connection to the "aboriginal australia" and play a little "jewish geography", a bit of askin around, feedin the above facts thru ppls heads... esp the "very senior pubservs in ATSI affairs" AND "married" bit...you'll probably work out who I am,at least who my oldies are (til the govt they worked for fucked them both long n hard...they don't want change they want good press) and what my "mob" has contributed to the "cause".Polysyllabaticisms , slang terms n all. Some of us look pretty "white", some of us don't, but that's hardly relevant to any of this.

And if its a matter of "well they did it , so it's ok for me to bake my brain and blast my soul with some godawful crystalline material"... the man was right...that is pretty sad.If it works for you, just do it, it's noone elses business. Re: the natural and energy efficient path in nature, I meant more the nature than the folks dotted all over it... and it's not real well known how common genital mutilation is and was here in aus... I just LOVE it when the ol chestnut "all over the place like a mad...someone's piss " comes up... how well can you aim when your bits have been altered with a rusty blade or fresh chipped stone or glass?And how "mad" do you reckon you'd end up if it happened to you?

In Australia, if you and your community/family/state all agree that you're a blackfella, then you are. Black enough to get into long heated debates with meatheads as to how no, you don't get a free car, free house, no you've never burnt furniture for heat, no you don't abuse small kids for cultural reasons, bla bla..black enough to have to remind yourself that the rest of the boys in here are whitebread types from a VERY different cultural background than yourself...melanin doesn't have a lot to do with it, there's plenty of coconuts with no sense for any of this and plenty of whities that are really dialled in to the aussie landscape as it related to them.As for language used equals feelings felt,connection lived, history to fall back on...if thats what you meant that is, I tend to be oversensitive to this kind of crap... well to be straight, thats bullshit.I don't need to be a walking thesaurus, or a total drone...plenty of "us" are in between.In fact most of my family has a trait where if everyone else is bigwording it up we ten dto dumb down and vice versa...not sure why, contary shits I spose.

One day we'll be able to be indig AND literate, neither "successful" or "one of those poor blackfellas"... just bloody people .I've worked in both extremes of lifes lil spectrum, lived at both extremes as well, in many senses of the term...was I more of a blackfella selling buds woops yandi than I was fillin in timesheets n playin solitaire for DATSIPAD? More in tune being unemployed but going walkies n camping al ot than I am now as a full time horticulturalist lucky enough to have a workplace positioned in a very interesting section of brissies NW fringe...and there ARE indig anthros kickin about as it happens,both quald and "amateur" just like all the amateur mycos runnin around.the best online didge site is also run by an american baby boomer.Go figure.

Apologies if my overactive persecution gland has kicked in, but that post smacked of ...the urge to classify people into neat linnaeic groupings, social groupings, stratification (bugger me thats a big word innit? mus be learn'im taim blond missin ay?) by educational status...and life just isn't that simple.At least mine sure as hell isn't.I'm hoping I just read it wrong, but multiple re-reads haven't made it look any better to tell ya the truth.Info but no spirit... I'llbefucked..."aboriginal culture" means just that, it doesn't specify do you mean central desert mobs , or some bloke that was around 30 thou years ago, or what I tend to think of as "modern aboriginal australia"... all I can do is offer what I believe to be true, for whatever reason.

Indigenous - Yes

Anthropologist - No

Info Rather than Feeling - I'd say it's the other way round most days.

Edited March 20, 2007 by greendreams

[Torsten]

hey greendreams, I love your perspective. Don't really care how black or not you are. You've already provided much more first hand experience than most here.

I also don't need indigenous cultures to justify my use of psychedelics, however a lot can be said for safety evaluation over such long periods that rituals develop in. In that respect there is little extra to be gained out of making any australian dmt connection as we already know the safety of the substance from the south american rituals.

I am personally more interested in things that indigenous australians did which we don't know about yet. Or rather, if we discover the activity of a plant, to find out whether this was used traditionally or not so that we can get an idea of the safety. More and more knowledge is lost every day, and what we might not deem as important these days might be very significant to humanity in years to come. eg, most conservatives would not see much value in the ayahuasca rituals of amazonia, but researchers know that a lot of healing can be done with them.

I am also in two minds about touristifying rituals. I obviously have a problem with it where the tourist trade interferes with the ritual itself, but I don't see why a ritual put on for tourists can't be a valuable commodity for the indigenous people. If an Irish tourist wants an islander tatoo then that's great as long as the intellectual property is preserved and the funds flow the right way.

Take the aboriginal tourist trade north of cairns for example. You can't get much more crappy touristy than Tjakupai. The aboriginal dancers do their thing and people clap and leave money. The flow on effect is that young aboriginal kids see that these dancers are doing well for themslves both financiall and in terms of self esteem, so they aspire to be dancers too. So you end up with a whole bunch of kids actually interested in their own culture because they see it as a way forward. Even if they have to learn modernised dances and non traditional routines, at least some of them will learn the real thing. And in the process they learn about their own culture, bushfoods, their language etc. As horrendous as Tjakupai is, I can see it having a much broader beneficial effect.

As for the likelyhood of rituals being suppressed by the church or not, just look at the historical record. In south america they tried to eradicate all rituals and when this failed they corrupted them into christian based rituals. eg Salvia divinorum , which is Ska Maria Pastora - the shepperdess, ie the Virgin Mary. I don't know much about aboriginal culture, but one thing seems quite clear that it is very hierachical. The mosts ecret and important knowledge is protected by those who achieve the highest level within the community. White settlers in australia quickly worked out that if they killed the elders then the rest of the group is weak and disoriented. Whenever a group reformed and gaind strength the whites would simply kill the leaders. This was practiced all over australia and had the effect of wiping out the most important knowledge from the top down. It is safe to assume that hallucinogenic rituals [if they existed] would have been under the control of the very top elders and hence would be one of the first things to be wiped out.

Indigenous communities themselves acknowledge that the majority of their culture has been destroyed and is fading rapidly [with very little being done to stop the loss]. They have faint memories of certain rituals, but often lack the context or even the language for them.

Pathetic comparison, but imagine if your parents took you to a rave at age 5 and then got killed. What would you remember of that ritual when you are an adult?

Loud music, lots of sweaty people, and lollypops. Does that really capture the essence of a rave? Isn't the essence the trance state, including drugs and rhythm? Aren't the other things just sidelines? So how can you rely on a child to carry on such knowledge if they don't even understand it?

There is a break in cultural transmission and this is known by both whites and the indigenous community. For many of these rituals all we have left are indeed the pickled remnants that anthropologists stuffed into museums. Today they give us more clues on some rituals than whatever knowledge may have survived.

Just look at the pituri trade as an example. We know that there is no trade from the main pituri area because we know it hasn't been harvested there for decades. The locals don't even bother harvesting any for pesonal use anymore. Most of them only know it by name and story, but not from experience. Everything that was associated with pituri is pretty much lost now or not practised and passed on and in another 20 years will be gone forever. I'd rather see a roadside pituri stall earning the local indigenous community some tourist dollars from rowdy english backpackers than for that knowledge to be lost forever. But that's just my view.

[chilli]

Hey Hebrew,

I don't really understand where your question about greendreams ethnicity comes from, it seems like you're saying "what you reckon you're a blackfella, well you don't sound like one, you sound like an anthropologist" Can't an aboriginal be an anthropologist without rejecting his people and his heritage? Don't know if that's what you meant, but that's just how it came across to me.

_______________________________________

Hey Torsten,

As for the likelyhood of rituals being suppressed by the church or not, just look at the historical record. In south america they tried to eradicate all rituals and when this failed they corrupted them into christian based rituals. eg Salvia divinorum , which is Ska Maria Pastora - the shepperdess, ie the Virgin Mary. I don't know much about aboriginal culture, but one thing seems quite clear that it is very hierachical. The mosts ecret and important knowledge is protected by those who achieve the highest level within the community. White settlers in australia quickly worked out that if they killed the elders then the rest of the group is weak and disoriented. Whenever a group reformed and gaind strength the whites would simply kill the leaders. This was practiced all over australia and had the effect of wiping out the most important knowledge from the top down. It is safe to assume that hallucinogenic rituals [if they existed] would have been under the control of the very top elders and hence would be one of the first things to be wiped out.

Indigenous communities themselves acknowledge that the majority of their culture has been destroyed and is fading rapidly [with very little being done to stop the loss]. They have faint memories of certain rituals, but often lack the context or even the language for them.

...There is a break in cultural transmission and this is known by both whites and the indigenous community. For many of these rituals all we have left are indeed the pickled remnants that anthropologists stuffed into museums. Today they give us more clues on some rituals than whatever knowledge may have survived.

I totally agree with all this, but it kind of feeds in to what I was asking, I just think maybe I didn't phrase it very clearly.

What I was saying was that while I acknowledge the break in culture, I don't think it was actively aimed at eliminating hallucinogenic use, which I thought was what you were implying.

What I was suggesting was that if there was knowledge about such things, there is a good chance it either would never have been discovered by white settlers due to the secrecy or rarity or both surrounding it, or that it would have persisted regardless of colonist interference as so much other aboriginal culture has.

Part of the reason I think this is because if it had existed, and white settlers had known about it and tried to sanitize or eradicate it like the Spanish did in South America, then we would almost certainly have records of it. Furthermore, I don't think it would necessarily have been successfully eliminated, in the same way it was not successful there, and in the same way that attempts in Australia to eliminate knowledge of wider aboriginal culture was not (entirely) successful.

This is what I meant when I said it seemed more likely that it either had never existed, or was lost long ago, or was lost during colonization due to the fact that so few had the knowledge, or perhaps was eliminated incidentally along with other aspects of aboriginal culture, although I think this last option is unlikely because I think there would be evidence for such a thing.

[hebrew]

ok with my querie for greendreams. it was more for my friends who have read his posts and have discussed somethigns with me about what he has written. i meant in no way to offend anyone. i should have worded my intent better but i didnt so sorry about that.

i dont know i shouldve just said nothign really but i didnt so i will do my best to explain where i was coming from.

my question about greendreams lineage and spirituality comes from another aboriginal person, and it is normal indigenous protocol to ask who your mob is and where your country is.

some of the points greendreams had written, my friend has questioned, for instance when he mentioned walkabout, this is one of my friends reactions to that " walkabout is more then a mere rambling over the earth....its is taking time out, to retune into the land, to recharge your spirit....to remind yourself who you are and where you come from".

also my friend didnt know where you were comgin from with your information, they write,

I'm sick of these people who write from a non-indigenous, "expert" point of view but claim aboriginal descent. are you aboriginal or not aboriginal? the way he talks is like a waipal describing our things and defining them according to western economic criteria, so he shouldn't be claiming ancestry to give his words more weight, if he's not going to be constrained by the logic systems and protocols of his "ancestors".

his notion of walkabout is a good example. he has missed the spirit of it, and ritual nature of it. and that's it - there's no spirit in what he's writing - he's writing like an anthropologist.

he knows a lot of info, but it's just info. this is a good example of knowledge without understanding.

my friend also writes

also, he doesn't say who he is or where he is from. his family and people and that relationship doesn't come through in how he talks about land. i'm always suspicious about people who claim descent but don't say who their family is.

so there we go i am sure this has opened up a whole new chapter to this discussion and i am being the messenger here, i originaly discussed this thread with them as i do find it interesting. but there are some statements about aspects of culture that dont sit well with other people. i bring them here to acknowledge the spirituality of the land, and its ways.

i spose this may seem critical but i woudl liek to say that greendreams you have written some good points here as well for one i really like this

Never heard of anything all that mushy related in terms of the stories and songs from here n there, and ya have to remember that whilst some use DMT as what others can see as a "shortcut" to "communication and experience of the divine" (use whatever terms you like the sound of here), others can and do still use the more "family orientated" variety of ways to raise the spirit, trance, dance, songs and stories, its hard not to feel at one with all that is when you haven't even entertained the possibility that you're not. "we" as a new culture (westernised world I mean here) have learned a million ways to confuse ourselves and no really good ways to sort that bullshit out again...some disagree and thats good too. "

there are many ways to connect with spirit and with the spirit of the land dmt is jsut one way. liek greendreams says famliy, songs, stories etc are other roads to spirit.

anyway maybe that explains where i was comgin from maybe not we will see. i didnt mean to question his ehtnicity at all i was askgin a question that is a common practice for indigenous people on behalf of an indigenous person.

hebrew

i in no way meant to classify people into boxes, this is not where i was comgin from, i should have worded things better but i didnt so that is the way it is i spose.

[Torsten]

What I was suggesting was that if there was knowledge about such things, there is a good chance it either would never have been discovered by white settlers due to the secrecy or rarity or both surrounding it, or that it would have persisted regardless of colonist interference as so much other aboriginal culture has.

Part of the reason I think this is because if it had existed, and white settlers had known about it and tried to sanitize or eradicate it like the Spanish did in South America, then we would almost certainly have records of it. Furthermore, I don't think it would necessarily have been successfully eliminated, in the same way it was not successful there, and in the same way that attempts in Australia to eliminate knowledge of wider aboriginal culture was not (entirely) successful.

I think there are some pretty substantial differences between the indigenous cultures of SA and Oz to account for a very different process. In SA the shaman was often a recluse, a secret person and not the political leader. In Oz the ritual secrets were held by the same people who held leadership roles. hence by eradicating the leaders here it would have wiped a lot of ritual knowledge, which would not have been the case in SA.

The way settlement and ethnic cleansing happened in oz was much more efficient and had a benign appearance. In SA the indigenous people knew who the enemy was, but in oz they were quickly being seduced by the church and were 'given the opportunity of a better life', which many took up with little resistance. When you feel a threat to your existence you take measures to protect your things, but if you somewhat blindly follow into a new life you leave behind things that don't match up with your new life. It seems very logical to me that IF there were hallucinogenic rituals then these would have been suppressed by the aboriginal people themselves in order to not conflict with the church and their god fearing brothers and sister.

I am not saying that the church eliminated these rituals by identifying them and preaching against them. That would have actually been better as this would have at least provided a record of them. But as many aboriginals joined the church they left behind a lot of their belief systems and their rituals as they were incompatible. Obviously there is also the other option that because of the already very secretive and exclusive nature of these rituals it was easy to keep them out of view and to make them even more secret. Good on them if that's the case and I hope they continue to maintain that tradition. It's just that I think it would be a shame for these things to get lost if they existed. ie, if psychedelic rituals are still being practised and handed down generation to generation in secret without any losses then woohoo. But if they are slowly being eroded one by one as the practicing elders die away, then that would be a great shame both for the indigenous people themselves and for humanity as a whole.

I've been in touch with a few indigenous people and we've even had some on this forum who had quite a lot of insight into aboriginal recreational and medicinal plant use. I think once again this only scratches the surface and I think there is a shitload more. I think there was a widespread culture of OCCASIONAL inebriant use or at least knowledge thereof, but I agree that it would not serve the aboriginal cause to have much of that out in public as yet - not in this prejudicial society.

or perhaps was eliminated incidentally along with other aspects of aboriginal culture, although I think this last option is unlikely because I think there would be evidence for such a thing.

I disagree. I think this is in fact the most likely scenario. Just look at Pituri again. It was such a huge part of aboriginal culture and has such an amazing history and yet virtually nothign remains in the traditional sense and the pickled record only has fragments about it. seriously, such a huge trade, such an important cultural trade that it spanned the whole continent and all we have left is fragments and a lot of misunderstanding. Pituri is probably only so 'well' preserved because it fascinated the anthropologists who stumbled upon it. The sheer distances of the trade are mindboggling and redefine so many parameters for us. Even botanists and chemists are fascinated by it due to the chemotypes that ultimately define the trade.

So, how about the use of Goodenia lunata? How much information can you find about that? It would have been just as important to the local mob, yet it holds little interest for anthropologists. It's just another nicotine plant.

Or the tropical Erythroxylum, which only has a minor reference as a stimulant/expectoran for chest infections.

Then there are members of the Scrophulariaceae family in WA that get you totally whacked from just a few puffs. What do we know about them? Nothing.

I don't think old australian anthropology compares well with that from overseas. I find most texts arrogant and irritating as they define things rather than observe and question, which is what many south american texts do. Also, one major difference is that I am not aware of many instances where a south american anthropologist was prohibited from writing about his experiences by the tribe he lived with. In Australia this is a rather common situation. Either you submit to the secrecy or you do not get to see the rituals. Simple as that. This makes me wonder why virtually no anthropologist has cheated. Either australian anthropologists have more integrity or they have a good reason not to tell. One thing is for sure - many have hinted that there is a whole lot more to it than they can write about.

[Vertmorpheus]

Well these things happen, I apologise again for acting like a pork chop. For a glorious communication tool the internet blows the goat as far as getting your point across goes. Someone mistypes something, so then someone else misreads it , then bodges up their reply to it...suddenly everyone's wondering whhhhat the bloody hell just happened?" I wasn't "offended" but I found bits of what I thought I was reading to be offensive...fine line I guess.

Either way, I cut two thoughts into a few pieces each and then tried to tie them together into a phrase basically saying "it has the best elements of bush bashing and going to westfield but sometimes was a fairly serious business" and then left out altogether the bit about "and being a colonial term, we have to remember that its a term applied in a fair deal of ignorance of what walking on meanginful lands can do for a person's heart and feeling of place" but when you tend to post stoned, sleepy and sun blasted at 11pm like I do, plans go out the window and you get the occasional abomination. Re-reading , yes I can kinda see how your mate would take it in the sense he has taken it... once again, these things happen. Still, if he has questions about me maybe he could email me rather than ranting about me when I'm busy eating tea or whatever. Playing "spot the blackfella" is a shitty way to spend an evening to be honest, but then I'm spending a part of mine to deal with the aftermath so all's good.

As for "not saying who he is or where hes from" well I am deeply sorry about that unnamed unlocated alleged blackfella mate, but take a look around in here...do you think "shroomitoonos" is what his parents called him? and the ones who have location listed as "dark side of the moon" REALLY live there? givemeafuckinbreak. If I had put in who I am and where I'm from in any sense, it'd have tripled the size of the first post and lets face it, I write some epic mini-series at the best of times. I didn't claim to be a "trueblood" with 10 aunties on speeddial, or to know everything about every mob in every part of the country...even knowing a lot about one doesn't help too much when dealing with someone from a very different ecological area. I just whacked up what I know and how I feel, and being something other than a perennial academic I occasional stuff up what I write.Geeze eh. Better leave me for the dingos and come back later for my feet or something.

Remember too that someone you don't know form jack asking who you are and where you are from is a bit shifty... when its another blackfella / hybrid call us what you will, it's different...it truly is "jewish geography", keeping a track of who has spread to where and making sure noone forgets their roots in the face of a cultural onslaught.So that put me on edge.As I said this isn't a terrific means of comms, but we do the best we can. And when we stuff up most of us are decent enough to own up to it :D

All that aside, having anyone anywhere in any capacity ask me to "please explain" things at the deepest root of me always makes me tense, and for good reason. But I hope I measure up and pass my IQ (indigenous quotient) test with flying redblacknyellow colours in the eyes of someone that... doesn't know me and doesn't have the decency to just ask.

These things happen.

And I wonder how many people would think I was secretly scottish if I wrote smoething that sounded like "...and defining them according to western economic criteria, so he shouldn't be claiming ancestry to give his words more weight, if he's not going to be constrained by the logic systems and protocols of his "ancestors".

I just wonder if the logic systems and protocols of the ancestors allowed for things as horribly pollutive as the process required to make the PC it seems he is emailing from...though I guess he might've carved a comp himself with a bit of sharpened quarts and a lot of bush wood and be running it on somekind of mythical generator run entirely on lillypilly juice and wallaby shit. Also, if he develops a big scary lump in his neck is he going to get smoked and folked or get a biopsy done? Or both? I know what I'd do and if one part of that solution that makes me "a white expert anthro" then I guess I'm going to have to get some business cards and letterheads printed up with my new title.Mum's going to be wild about this one...

Unbefuckinlievable. Bruddas.

Anyways, off to bed.Have a good one all

GD

Edited March 20, 2007 by greendreams

[Torsten]

ROFL

you have a wicked sense of humour as well as a great way of telling your story. please don't be put off by someone who doesn't even appear to be a member of these forums [even if it is by proxy].

To be honest I am surprised you ended up posting so much personal detail without demanding some first. But hey, I am glad you did.

[chilli]

I think there are some pretty substantial differences between the indigenous cultures of SA and Oz to account for a very different process. In SA the shaman was often a recluse, a secret person and not the political leader. In Oz the ritual secrets were held by the same people who held leadership roles. hence by eradicating the leaders here it would have wiped a lot of ritual knowledge, which would not have been the case in SA.

Good points, but isn't South Australia actually a part of Oz?

Sorry, that was pretty lame I guess. Hey anyway, didn't you make the comparison to South America originally?

As for the rest of your post, again some very interesting points. I didn't know pituri use was so sparsely documented. I can certainly understand your ideas, and I think they are definitely feasible, but when we are reduced to speculation my natural tendency is to start hacking and slashing at anything in my path with my trusty Occam razor.

[Torsten]

Good points, but isn't South Australia actually a part of Oz?

LOL, I was actually expecting that. More likely from shroomtoonos though

Hey anyway, didn't you make the comparison to South America originally?

many similarities for sure, but also many differences. 300 years did make quite a difference in the way the empires dealt with the pesky natives they encountered. The end result wasn't much different for the indigenous population, but the process was very different. As I said, the amazonian natives knew their enemy because they came with guns blazing to instantly steal whatever they could get and kill whoever wasn't useful as slaves. In australia the slavery was more or less disguised and there were actually laws protecting the natives [ie settlers used to have to invent legitimate reasons for killing aboriginals]. The whole invasion was covered in a veneer of benign intervention rather than all out war, rape and pillage.

I didn't know pituri use was so sparsely documented. I can certainly understand your ideas, and I think they are definitely feasible, but when we are reduced to speculation my natural tendency is to start hacking and slashing at anything in my path with my trusty Occam razor.

yeah, me too. But when you start digging you find so many tidbits that don't add up. For example, take my discovery that one of the traditional pituri preparation methods [which is about the only thing well documented] would eliminate most of the nicotine from the material. Why would this be the favoured process for a material traded far and wide? No one has even begun looking at that. I only twigged onto it because I knew about the identical kanna preparation process. So where to now?

[chilli]

Hey Torsten,

...when you start digging you find so many tidbits that don't add up. For example, take my discovery that one of the traditional pituri preparation methods [which is about the only thing well documented] would eliminate most of the nicotine from the material. Why would this be the favoured process for a material traded far and wide? No one has even begun looking at that. I only twigged onto it because I knew about the identical kanna preparation process. So where to now?

Interesting theory, there definitely could be something to it... here's a comment I found whilst trawling the net with regards to this topic.

"Pituri use these days is shrouded in mystery, and has become something of an outback Holy Grail for Ethnobotanists and New Age pilgrims alike."

Source: http://aboriginalrights.suite101.com/artic...al_drug__pituri

[Torsten]

bred and farmed? I thinks that taking it a bit far.

maybe weak plants were culled over time, but I can't imagine it being farmed [ie intentionally planted] there. just my opinion though.