anyone have nonbridgesii dark exps?

[t st tantra]

So the conclusion was the dark experience resulted from overdose? as would be possible for any other cacti? Or is it still deemed bridge specific?

no sorry ,the two threads ,long term effects and dark experiences ,are linked topics and i assumed anyone reading one would read the other,so i just posted it here.didnt have time to track down the other thread.

the darkness seems bridgesii specific and for some people a major difference,other people it seems find bridgesii much like pedro.these threads were an attempt to sort it out .

t s t .

[SaBReT00tH]

I don't know much about MAOIs but could the dark experience be due to this? As Bridgesii is rumoured to contain MAOIs?

[-YT-]

Doubt dark experience would be casued from MAOI's and or the Bridgessi but more so pertaining to the certain individual the chemical is a route of access to a place... what one experiences in the place gives rise to reactions that of darkness or heavyness etc

I remember post by tantra saying he felt like he was in the land of the gods, have heard very similar things seems that in this place alot goes on then we dont know or care to know about in a way of saying on all levels of awareness... this possibly leading to long term chemical reactions... could be a way of the plant communicating through chemical impulses/changes which are meant for intergration/learning whether we choose to or not... as we are the ones making the choice partaking of these sacred plants, and most of us know that they will teach what they deem necessary, not what we find applicable or appealing. offcourse this is all just my 2 cents

Isoquiolines i think is the MAOI type alkaloid you are referring to sabre

[t st tantra]

hordenine,is a methyl form of tyramine ,i think,which is curious as its being used to potentiate peas, as an maoi,dose is apparently 50mg.if bridgesii has 50mg hordenine in a dose then that may be the answer.

t s t .

[-YT-]

Very interesting Tantra

Also found this in Tihkal

"PEA ---->THIQ (Tetrahydroisoquinoline)"

" (5) The relationships between the parent, open chain amine and the cyclized product are complex, and they can often afford a different class of action, sometimes a complimentary form of action. With the Tetrahydroisoquinolines, there has yet to be a definition of the role they play in the action of the many cacti where they are major alkaloids. With the Tetrahydo-B-carbolines, the action is that of facilitation."

Thought it would be worth posting

[teonanacatl]

added this here rather then in trich flesh thread. There is quite a bit of hordenine in williamsii, how does this fit with your bridgesii experiences dark due to hordenine hypoth? Hordenine is also known as anhaline and it acts upon adrenal glands to provoke adrenaline secretion.

The concentrations in williamsii are supposedly 8%, mescaline 30% of the alkaloids. This means 500mg mescaline 133mg hordenine

Edited August 10, 2007 by teonanacatl

[charliewired]

There are so many factors in dark trip experiences so as to be almost impossible to dissect - especially when 50% of the component is the human mind

(I say 50% determined as 1/2 the substance and 1/2 the partaker)

I seen people get so messed on shrooms the could barely function - the glided on the good trip for about an hour of peak before the onset of what I would call the beginings of a "bad trip"...

Nothing had really changed around us and everyone else was immensely ethralled....

I thought long and hard about why this person would suddenly shift perception when all the stimulus was a constant,,, and he was definitely at his peak so I didnt figure he was going beyond a comfart threshold...

It suddenly occured to me that this person was a (heavy) smoker and hadnt had a cigarette for quite a while - this didnt occur to them in thier state of altered and excited mental confusion,,

I encouraged them to have a few drags of a cig....... lo and behold

They were soon back into a state of joy and exaltation,,, having subdued the source of discontent that was fast catapulting them into a harsh realm.

There are so many variables,,,, yet the substance obviously must be considered...

as must be asked of all things

"what is a thing, in and of itself?"

I havent experiences bridgesii so I cant comment specifically on that,

but I thought mabye my tale might shed some light, perhaps, on the mental component,,,

Cheers

Cw

[trucha]

I have heard of two over-the-top but unmescalinelike experiences from bridgesii but never anyone describing bridgesii as sinister. Most people who work with it describe it quite differently. A growing number of people I know have abandoned all other species and work only with it.

I have though heard of the ocasional dark sinister experiences with any cacti I am aware of people using, including peyote and pachanoi, as well as pure mescaline. Really I've heard of this being a reaction to any psychedelic I am aware of including acid and pshrooms and dmt.

Hairy experiences are often the result simply of taking too much or being in a wrong head space. These allies often show us what is inside of us so that might be something to consider.

Set and setting and/or dosage are probably more the culprit than the species?

The most potent ones have left me wondering if there is an MAOI/mescaline interaction due to the tiny amounts required.

Many isoquinolines in cacti do have MAOI properties; some are quite potent. Very little has been published yet as this work is presently ongoing.

All cacti can vary wildly in potency for a number of reasons; including bridgesii. They are living adn dynamic beings not static things like powder in capsule.

[t st tantra]

been meaning to try to clear this up for a bit.

after verbally comunicating about this i think i can better define what i mean by dark in relation to bridgesii.

sinister is a term i carried over from someone else not one i would use,but i know what the user meant.

my use of the term dark relates to the visual qualities.

pachanoi and peruvianus visuals seem full of light and colour,maybe colour on light.

but bridgesii is more like shrooms.......colour on darkness.....add that bit of paranoia......and intense stimulation.....someone expecting the light and colour and serenity of pach experiences this and it might seem sinister.

t s t .

[nitrogen]

For me bridgesii comes on with a bit of tremor and stimulation but within a couple hours becomes heavy and narcotic feeling, I just want to go melt in a recliner or something - If I get back and up move, I become light and "up" again, but as soon as I sit down it's a sort of dreamy melting effect - yummy...

It also take a good 2+ hours for the visual element to bloom - there's definately some complex chemical synergy going on there, the way the high all comes together at the 2.5 hour mark or so...

In contrast macrogonus and pachanoi syrups give me a very "zingy" stimulation, where I feel energized... Fresh pachanoi has made me dreamy feeling though....

And I've had dark or "sinister" moments on all types of cactus and pure mescaline extracts... Sitting quietly in meditation, or just sitting and being with myself with eyes closed for 10-20 minutes after dosing to center and open the awareness has made the transition much much smoother in my experience...

Edited August 12, 2007 by nitrogen

[whiterasta]

IMO there are real plant teachers. Plants that via their chemistry and effects induce novel thought patterns. The patterns however are artifacts of the components existing in the mind.Achuma, the name of the plant teacher "bridgesii", is like a child on the beach turning over stones and watching the creatures scatter. Sometimes laughing at the oceanic life and other times recoiling in fear of what has been turned up. Only the beach is your own mind and the only observer is you. The child is the plant and the stones are concrete reality we create around us. Every one of us has things we fear beneath the surface for Achuma to "turn over". Our reaction to what pops up is the trip. Sometimes light and forgiving but occasionally we face some of our worst fears. How one deals with their fear is a lesson that many psychedelics offer not only Achuma. I have soared in extacy many times with Achuma but I REMEMBER the details of the times of being drug through the fire the few times it has occured. We remember those painful lessons much more than the easy rides.

So when looking at the percieved "dark" energy of Achuma be prepared to look at the dark within ones self. The plant is just turning up the mental creations under which darkness lies.

In that Achuma has much to show us.

In considering substances which can potentiate the experience one must also realize many of our own substances are chemically similar and are likely affected along with the plant born substances also. So in that alone we can bring our own flavor to such an experience. People speak of MAOI action but must realize MAO exists to regulate our own mental equilibrium via oxidation of amines from our nervous systems and food. So when considering MAOI in psychedelic effects one must ask what amines are not being destroyed and in the nervous system and how are they coloring the experience? Especially among the PEA's in cactus and our own bodies there is room for much complex synergy.

WR

[mr b.caapi]

So what quantity would be a normal dose of Eileen?

[Chiral]

Not sure about Eileen but she is supposed to be a bit special..18" would be pretty full on...most Bridge are amazing I love em...really intense and organic.

H.

[WoodDragon]

Hunab.

Is that 18" or 18cm?

[Alchemica]

With any bridgesii I've encountered so far, de-spining, skinning (that is peeling it off, keep the green margin), slicing and oven drying the cactus seems to be the best way to go (...powder it and gulp down with water later). Assume up to 3% dry weight mescaline for Eileen...

~10g dry should get you to a visual space. More if you want to go furthur.

Edited May 26, 2009 by The Alchemist

[Chiral]

Hunab.

Is that 18" or 18cm?

Inches ...yeah 12 inches will get you there but 18 seems to be good as there is a lot of waste with the skin and spines and core etc..

H.

[Gunter]

I keep finding mention of bridgesii having an isoquinoline in it, which increases the subjective intensity of the mescaline, thus making some clones seem more potent when not actually having a greater relative amount of mescaline. The main source of this information seems to be people repeating what Shulgin has said, apparently recently, and the information does not appear to have been published.

I believe, contrary to Shulgins apparent theory, that potentiation is caused by COMTI action instead of MAOI action. After all COMT is a methyl group accepting metabolizer of major neurochemicals like seratonin and dopamine and MAOI has never been suffcient to explain the action of harmine and other agents as potentiators, harmine is believed to affect COMT as well as MAO. Consider that Tetrahydroharmine is well known to be a MAOI, but it fails to allow DMT to be orally active, clearly there is more to the betacarbolines that MAOI action and the mode of action seems to relate to the same mode of action involved in isoquinoline potentiation of mescaline.

[nitrogen]

Per potency - must consider the girth of the cactus too - a 4" X 6" slab is gonna be like a 2" X 12" piece... The potency varies too, some say by season, or by age...

If Eileen is as potent as some of my other bridgesii, then an 18" piece, if it's a fat 3-4" piece I think would be entirely too much... Or not, depending on what you're after...

To me a quality bridgesii is one that will produce a substantial and satisfying experience with a 6" X 3" or so wide piece - that's my acid test for cactus - how far does a 6" section get me... Not to say that 6" need be mind-blowing, but it should produce visuals with eyes open and rich visuals with eyes closed, as well as transcendent aspects and insight if the setting is right.. About like 100-150mcg of good acid, a solid tab or so...

Me and a friend split the tea from an 8" X 3" piece (so 4" length apiece) of a certain unnamed clone pictured below (the single column to the right of it in the small pot is an Eileen) last weekend and that was produced a pretty rich experience for me, great visionary stuff with eyes closed... Another friend had 5" or so of the same cactus yesterday and found it quite strong as well...

Now, I had a 8" by 2.5" piece of this same cactus last year, soon after I brought it home from the place I bought it, and that was less strong than the 4"X3" piece I had recently (although that was strong too) - since it has been in my care it's been getting much more sunlight and nutrients than it was when I first got it... The spines are thicker and longer than they were before, I think due to the sun exposure... And the piece we ate recently had been cut over a month before (I've read that letting them sit for awhile increases potency but I dunno if this is true).. The fresh material is very very bitter...

I've eaten this particular strain 5 times (3 were pretty low dose though), and is has been of different friendliness each time - a couple had dark and slightly sinister elements/periods for sure, but overall it has been very friendly and enjoyable, especially this most recent time.. Probably a lot to do with my own state of mind and what the cactus felt I needed at the time...

So the potency varies... The best way to do it if you want to be sure is make up a batch of tea with a whole lot of cactus, try out an amount, and then you'll know how strong the whole batch will always be if you keep it frozen...

Edited May 26, 2009 by nitrogen

[t st tantra]

i consider hunab and the alchemist to be hardheads and i would not recommend those size doses to anyone first time....6inches should be fine....apart from that the alchemist has some good advice......

t s t .

that said i know a number of 'normal' people who have dosed those levels and not found it demanding.

Edited May 26, 2009 by t st tantra

[incognito]

its all state of mind maaaannn...if u have shit goin on in ur life, if u r unstable of mind, wellll ur gonna have a shithouse trip!!!

im starting to think that u have to be 'sane'(at least comfortable/at peace with urself) to trip!!

btw Hunab i thought u had no experience wit cactamuses??

[Chiral]

its all state of mind maaaannn...if u have shit goin on in ur life, if u r unstable of mind, wellll ur gonna have a shithouse trip!!!

im starting to think that u have to be 'sane'(at least comfortable/at peace with urself) to trip!!

btw Hunab i thought u had no experience wit cactamuses??

What on earth makes you say that big fella...had plenty of juice and salts maaaan...tried a fair few in fact pretty much all last summer it was like a weekly thing...mostly pach but the first believe it or not was like some 12 months ago a small scop I have ...took 25cm off the top and had a wild ride...I still have that plant and they say scops are useless but this little fella rocked my sox..since that one it was mainly pach then moved on to try bridge and wouldn't go back to pach now really it takes too much plant matter and is not as powerful IMO.

I must say it's quite an exhausting experience and terribly long...they can be sooooo damn long and stimulating mesc trips...make sure you have something to knock it on the head after 14 hours cause it can go on for ever...I sometimes used it as a headache reliever and most peoples tell me they get head aches from it...I know Archaea was talking about very small doses around 5mg daily as some sort of anti depressant a while ago too which I found interesting.

but nah I love mesc just haven't been hanging out with it lately...seems to be for me a summer fruit...like strawberries...

H.

[tenacioustornado]

I read scops are 2x the potency of pedro on the net is that true probably according to your experience?

[anita muscaria]

been meaning to try to clear this up for a bit.

after verbally comunicating about this i think i can better define what i mean by dark in relation to bridgesii.

sinister is a term i carried over from someone else not one i would use,but i know what the user meant.

my use of the term dark relates to the visual qualities.

pachanoi and peruvianus visuals seem full of light and colour,maybe colour on light.

but bridgesii is more like shrooms.......colour on darkness.....add that bit of paranoia......and intense stimulation.....someone expecting the light and colour and serenity of pach experiences this and it might seem sinister.

t s t .

this sounds very familiar to me. With bridg, the feeling is electric blue over darkness / neon lit alley. with pachanoi it is bright, golden, positive etc.

once made up a batch for a group with about 80% pach and 20% bridg and result was the same for all. adding a slice of fresh monstrose to you pach soup is similar

[anita muscaria]

I read scops are 2x the potency of pedro on the net is that true probably according to your experience?

i used to have a spineless bridg that looked like a scop and could imagine people being easily confused, i wonder....

real scop has always been similar to pach for me though probably stronger

[apothecary]

i used to have a spineless bridg that looked like a scop

This one?

http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/inde...ost&id=9556

Edited June 23, 2009 by apothecary