KHAT Wine anyone ?

[Hellonasty]

Just read this on Erowid.

Qat Wine#

Harvested fresh leaves (a good quantity) can just be popped whole into a two litre bottle of good, cheap red wine (after, of course, decanting some of the wine) and left to steep for 6-8 weeks and then strained out of the liquid and discarded. The more potent the concentration in the wine, the better. (One can test it by bio-assay as one goes along.) Then, put a good tot or two of the strained red wine into a tall glass, add ice, lemon and soda for a refreshing, mildly stimulating summer drink that will certainly get your friends talking.

Anyone tried or think this is possible ?

The degredation of the alkoloids in Khat is well known, as the leaves must be fresh to be active.

I am wondering whether the acidity of the wine helps to preserve the Meth/Cathinone.

[MORG]

Sounds good if it's true.

Hard to find two litre bottles of wine that are cheap though.

Maybe buy an empty two litre bottle and a box of goon or a couple of cleanskins.

[Hellonasty]

Sounds good if it's true.

Hard to find two litre bottles of wine that are cheap though.

Maybe buy an empty two litre bottle and a box of goon or a couple of cleanskins.

Yeah I was thiking it would be great if it's possible. Hahah the goon idea sounds like tha go.

[XipeTotec]

the most active component of khat breaks down very fast once picked... I am led to believe that this is what also prevents a pure extract from being on the market. im no chemist though, so I dont actually know.

[Hellonasty]

^

Yeah Meth(Cathinone) breaks down fairly rapidly once exposed to heat, light etc. But I think I remember someone possibly Torsten saying an acid salt form will preserve the alkaloids for a much longer period. I'm also no expert on chem and was wondering if the wine could also help perserve alkaloids.

[Conan Troutman]

Catha contains cathinone (not methcath) and cathine, both active, the later a less powerful.

The wine would likely only contain cathine, which is the breakdown product of cathinone.

...Cathine is more similiar to ephedra

[Torsten]

a strong acid salt will prevent enolisation, which is needed for polymerisation/cyclisation [can't remember which] is seems. It's the latter step that kills the effect.

A strong acid salt in solution will not prevent this from happening but will slow it down. so does low temps.

[Hellonasty]

a strong acid salt will prevent enolisation, which is needed for polymerisation/cyclisation [can't remember which] is seems. It's the latter step that kills the effect.

A strong acid salt in solution will not prevent this from happening but will slow it down. so does low temps.

So the wine method is not a practical way of extracting. I guess placing the bottle in the freezer or fridge would do little if nothing at all due to the time it would take to get the goodies out Bummer.

Hmmm thanks Torsten. I thought this would be the case.

[John_Barleycorn]

a strong acid salt will prevent enolisation, which is needed for polymerisation/cyclisation [can't remember which] is seems. It's the latter step that kills the effect.

A strong acid salt in solution will not prevent this from happening but will slow it down. so does low temps.

The issue is that cathinone contains both amine and ketone functional groups. These can react together to form polymers, provided the amine is free-based. So, I wouldn't have thought moisture would be such a big deal here, and many fruit-based wines would have a pH of 3-4 and should be naturally acidic enough. Enol-keto tautomerism is a different matter entirely, in which the molecule essentially flits between two different forms. I wasn't actually aware that cathinone had an applicable structure for this to occur, and a quick Google turns up nothing.

[Torsten]

The issue is that cathinone contains both amine and ketone functional groups. These can react together to form polymers, provided the amine is free-based. So, I wouldn't have thought moisture would be such a big deal here, and many fruit-based wines would have a pH of 3-4 and should be naturally acidic enough.

The rate of degradation definitely increases with alkalinity and heat, however the salts of weak acids are certainly not well protected - especially in solution.

Enol-keto tautomerism is a different matter entirely, in which the molecule essentially flits between two different forms. I wasn't actually aware that cathinone had an applicable structure for this to occur, and a quick Google turns up nothing.

Degradation of cathinone is pretty much exactly at the same rate as enolisation. I am not saying the two are definitely connected, but I am saying that degradation occurs at an analogous rate as enolisation. This includes the speed of degradation observed as salts of weak acids and the speed of degradation observed in solution [even as a salt of a strong acid].

The degradation product dried up mucous membranes, so there might be a medicinal use for khat wine.

[John_Barleycorn]

I think the advice to avoid moisture and weak acids is basically sound, but the explanation could probably do with some tidying up. The odds are that the cathinone dimer is water-insoluble, which complicates the dynamics of the reaction. When it is said that cathinone exists as a salt in an acidic medium, this is only an approximation because there is always an equilibrium between the salt and the free-base which lies more or less in one direction. So, if two free-based molecules collide and form a dimer, the resulting precipitation should cause more free-base to be liberated in order to preserve the equilibrium. In this way, the cathinone could ploymerise under acidic conditions, and it is worth noting that a mineral acid will tilt the equilibrium much greater than an organic acid. The presence of water probably helps molecules to collide.

[Torsten]

thanks. that was the piece of the puzzle I was missing.

now, just one more problem. when the inactive degradation product is put into a reduction system it becomes active again. more like the activity of cathine than cathinone, but still, quite noticably active. any explanation for that?

[btw, by inactive I am just referring to the stimulant properties. that degradation product is very active at drying up mucous membranes]

[Benzito]

Well, why doesn't someone try? It's not exactly an expensive experiment.

I'd do it, but I'm not a drinker, and when I do it's beer. I would get drunk from one glass, making me a pretty useless test subject.

[Torsten]

Well, why doesn't someone try? It's not exactly an expensive experiment.

I'd do it, but I'm not a drinker, and when I do it's beer. I would get drunk from one glass, making me a pretty useless test subject.

Quite a few people have. I am surprised no one has posted about it.

[Qhorakuna tantani]

Cathinone info

This reference says that tautomerism does occur, but simply causes a racemic mixture.

Also this, More info

It mentions a cathinone reductase enzyme capable of converting cathinone into cathine exists in plant material, which makes more sense as a depotenizing (:s) agent as cathine is just the reduced form of cathinone, with the dimers being only small fractions (assumed artifacts) when identified, according to the first reference. Now I'm wondering if an alcohol will denature the enzyme without reacting at the C=O so that storage of 'denatured' khat leaves is possible? I wonder if this would also make possible a selectively bred 'low enzyme' form? I'm assuming that the fact that (meth)cathinone contain a reactive C=O alone make them quite easily degredated, but I would also think that the enzyme is a large contributor to the cathine production, which would also provide an answer to why theres mostly cathinone in younger leaves, but cathine and others in older leaves :D

Just something I've been thinking about.

[PhoenixSon]

Quite a few people have. I am surprised no one has posted about it.

anyone???????????????

Edited April 21, 2009 by spacemonk

[santiago]

How hard could it possibly be for someone to tear up a certain amount of leaves, empty a quarter a bottle of stardard merlot mix the two and stick it in the fridge, and three months later give it a whirl, there seems to be a lot of conjecture over whether this molecule bonds with that or if the half life of cathidone survives outer space etc etc, you will find out in aprox 2 months and three weeks if this is a load of crap or not.

[gilligan]

How hard could it possibly be for someone to tear up a certain amount of leaves, empty a quarter a bottle of stardard merlot mix the two and stick it in the fridge, and three months later give it a whirl, there seems to be a lot of conjecture over whether this molecule bonds with that or if the half life of cathidone survives outer space etc etc, you will find out in aprox 2 months and three weeks if this is a load of crap or not.

If anyone wishes to donate some fresh leaves to the cause, i'm more than willing to be a tester...

[Torsten]

I am not sure what the argument here is. The experiment has already been done in many liquids and the original author does not claim anything more than a 'mild stimulant'. If the cathinone was still around at that point it would be more than mild, ie even the athor implies that degradation of the cathinone has taken place. Cathinone degrades in no time at all. Cathine sticks around. An alcoholic solution does not protect the cathinone.

[mutant]

I don't think you all understand the recippe. Maybe I don't either...

I don't think it's some super tek. It's just synergy. You propably don't understand maybe because most of you [many] don't drink alcohol. Alcohol combines great with lots of things - Swim tells me its combines great, for him anyway, f.e. with speed, mdma kai every such stimulant. I am sure it goes this way with khat too, but I dunno...

PS: alcohol + other drugs , especially speed+mdma are generally considered dangerous, but idiocy can render anything dangerous.

[Torsten]

i think alcohol is a good drug. I've combined it very happily in low doses with just about every other substance. eg it can take the edge of acid coming on, it can reduce the nausea of shrooms, it goes brilliantly with pot and gabaergics in moderation, and turns stimulants into much more social occasions. The problem with alcohol is mostly it's excess and the mentality of people who think it is the only good drug, ie it's not the alcohol that's the problem, but the people. Amazonian shaman will even put a bi of booze into aya brew if they have it, and tibetan shaman use alcohol to induce visionary states in combination with herbs [herbs largely optional is seems].

One of the reasons I prefer the narrow leaf khat over the red khat is the fact that the narrow leaf is not just a straight stimulant. It's more like taking a stimulant and an inebriant at the same time. like taking ephedra and a beer for example. So, soaking red khat in wine might produce a similarly inebriated stimulation.

[Chiral]

mmm interesting what sorts of alcohol are we talking about here to soak our leaves... have people found other types of alcohol better...ie Vodka and Khat might be nice...I don't like to consume large amounts of alcohol so the less alcohol I have to drink the better.

thinking further down the line is making a tincture an option with Khat...?

and this may sound weird but if fresh khat is placed in the mouth and chewed...are the actives being broken down with saliva or are being preserved...I'm just trying to work out at what point the Cathinone breaks down into cathine...might one be able to use the saliva as a storage liquid of the cathinone....perhaps chew leaves whilst drinking some khat wine might have a greater effect.

H.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Hunab Ku

[Torsten]

thinking further down the line is making a tincture an option with Khat...?

again, only if your target is cathine.

and this may sound weird but if fresh khat is placed in the mouth and chewed...are the actives being broken down with saliva or are being preserved

Neither. They simple break down as per their normal process. Saliva may promote this a little due to it's alkalinity, but the majority of alkaloids would be absorbed as what they are.

at what point the Cathinone breaks down into cathine.

It doesn't. This is a reduction reaction and requires a reducing enzyme.

It's really simple folks, if you want cathinone you have to eat it fresh or store as the dry HCl salt [after careful extraction]. If you want cathine then you can do all sort of things as cathine won't break down or polymerise at any great rate.

[mutant]

Glad to read your comment, Torsten.

The problem with alcohol is mostly it's excess and the mentality of people who think it is the only good drug, ie it's not the alcohol that's the problem, but the people.

exactly! you cannot even blame it for violence - violence is released by it lowering inhibitions, but violence is there before drinking ;)

[Qhorakuna tantani]

Wonder if soaking leaves in a small amount of strong acid solution followed by quick, heatless drying (freeze/vacuum drying or maybe dehydrator) of the whole lot might enable storage of somewhat active dried leaves, provided the stay very dry. Acid could protect the cathinone while at the same time possibly deactivating the enzyme. Just chucking ideas out there. I know that in Japan they've managed to make storable miraculin tablets (easily degradated active in miracle berries) by freeze drying a water extract with large amounts of starch. Having useful dried leaves would be nice, just easier than going the full extraction which also would leave a product in either liquid or crystal, both prone to degradation. I spose the biggest thing is that cathinone itself really isn't all that stable, so no matter what is done to improve khat, it probably wont be a huge difference.