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Ace

TBM variants

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I'm a little sceptical on there being more than one clone, I've seen mature plants do all sorts of things. short clumping plants with extended arms a foot or more long, and lacking spines. But these 'varieties' seem to come all from the same plants, not to forget that the 'monster' most probably originated from a crested variety of bridgesii.

Edited by prier

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Well how did there get to be so many strains of T bridgesii itself? I mean, there's go to be a couple dozen of them at least...

Do monstrosus bridgesii produce seed at all? Within the seed there's genetic variation no? Don't seedlings from a batch of seeds all turn out a bit different?

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No they don't flower or set seed unfortunately.

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Well how did there get to be so many strains of T bridgesii itself? I mean, there's go to be a couple dozen of them at least...

Because strain is the wrong word. They are simply clones.

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Are you saying they're not distinguishable varieties, but just slight variations in different plants which have been propagated via cuttings? I have several bridgesii plants which are slightly different, but one plant which is consider very different from the rest, possibly a different variety. I'll take a photo of it and post it soon.

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I'm not saying there are no "strains" of bridgesii. I define a strain as the children (seedlings) will be phenotypically similar to their parents (assuming the parents are of the same strain).

But most of the distributed bridgesii (especially the ones mentioned in this thread) are all just clonally propagated.

There is plenty of variation in seed grown bridgesii.

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There is plenty of variation in seed grown bridgesii.

I think thats what everyone is getting at - if you have a few different types of seedlings (one batch could be say from a bridgie grown in South America, crossed with an 'Eileen' clone, both of which look very different) - then there will be many different looking offspring, several of which may mutate into TBMs. What if the bulk of the normal seedlings are very typical bridgies, and there are several with abnormalities (e.g. very short spines, unusually thin ribs, etc, etc), and there are variants in the TBMs of the same batch?

Are these considered different types of TBMs or different clones? Could this be why there are several different TBMs at this point in time (i.e. Hulks Dick, little clumps of knobs, elongated clumpers, etc)?

Obviously with time these new mutants will be grown, cloned (via cuttings) and shared out in the community. Eventually time will erase all breeding records and background to these plants and they will just take on standard names (like the Hulks Dick), so how can we tell if they originally all came from the same background and have just morphed with different habitats/growth parameters?

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"so how can we tell if they originally all came from the same background and have just morphed with different habitats/growth parameters?"

DNA

"There is plenty of variation in seed grown bridgesii."

I would say bridgesii exhibits the most variation of all the trichs.

Has anyone got a monstrose T. bridge from seed? its not something I've heard of, & it would have to b one of the most grown.

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then there will be many different looking offspring, several of which may mutate into TBMs.

Just because a bridgesii can sometimes go a bit monstroseish doesn't actually make it a bridgesii var monstrose! The plant is either monstrose from birth and remains that way, or not. If you take a cut of a morphing variety (even if its in monstrose phase), chances are that it will return to normal growth patterns before long.

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Just because a bridgesii can sometimes go a bit monstroseish doesn't actually make it a bridgesii var monstrose! The plant is either monstrose from birth and remains that way, or not.

So does that mean that the typical TBM is a different species? Why is it that typical TBMs dont revert to the normal growth? How would it have originated?

Sorry if I sound like I'm going in circles, but you keep on saying that it is a completely different type, but it is just a mutated one...?

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TBM is not a different species but a different form or variety, Trichocereus bridgesii v. monstrosus. I believe it's all one plant, propagated via clones, the different forms of TBM (which is confusing), are just the same plant with a slight variation due to its conditions.

Where I work we have numerous TBMs, all originating from the same stock. There are really fat ones that clump, little ones that clump, fat ones that grow very columnar, and thin ones that grow columnar. Each of the different forms I describe arise from their conditions; how big the pot is, how much food it's getting, which glasshouse it's in/how much sun/shade it's getting, etc. Next time I’m at work I'll ask if it's okay to take some photos, no guarantees.

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TBM is not a different species but a different form or variety, Trichocereus bridgesii v. monstrosus. I believe it's all one plant, propagated via clones, the different forms of TBM (which is confusing), are just the same plant with a slight variation due to its conditions.

Where I work we have numerous TBMs, all originating from the same stock. There are really fat ones that clump, little ones that clump, fat ones that grow very columnar, and thin ones that grow columnar. Each of the different forms I describe arise from their conditions; how big the pot is, how much food it's getting, which glasshouse it's in/how much sun/shade it's getting, etc. Next time I’m at work I'll ask if it's okay to take some photos, no guarantees.

Ive see at least 3 dif types of growth on my TBM, but nothing like hulks dick! it couldnt be purely environmental, genetics must play some roll?...Id be guessing someone must have done some cloning from plants with a greater tendency for a specific growth??

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Thanks Prier - that was exactly what I had thought (environmental conditions). But even still, as rare as it might be, what happens if we seed raise a new and very unique TBM? Then we could call it a different type, yeah? E.g. 'Trich. bridgesii var monstrose forma Ace's Pocket Monster' :P

I think Conan has a good point - the Hulk looks far too weird to be an environmentally influenced version of a standard TBM...

Edited by Ace

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Check out some of these grafting stocks (and the amazing grafts!!!) See the big chunky cylindrical stocks - do you think these are big hulks? They must be fairly common in this guys garden (sorry, cant remember where I found the pic - somewhere at the Nook I think) to be using them as stocks!

Any thoughts? Still think environment plays a big part in it? I gotta admit, I'm a tad skeptical... They just dont look like the Aussie TBMs in my book...

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weird, why would he graft onto TBMs?? I thought they were almost slower growing than lophs! Hahaha, Ace's pocket monster! :D

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Thanks Prier - that was exactly what I had thought (environmental conditions).

I respectfully disagree with prier, nobody is denying that there is environmentally induced feature variation, but it is known and clear that there are two or three (depending on how you view Hulks dick) genetically different monstrose clones which came from three different stocks.

There is no room in the nomenclature (afaik, someone correct me if I'm wrong) for calling, e.g. TBM clone B which was grown in different environment and hence looks macroscopically different, a different formae from its motherplant.

But even still, as rare as it might be, what happens if we seed raise a new and very unique TBM? Then we could call it a different type, yeah? E.g. 'Trich. bridgesii var monstrose forma Ace's Pocket Monster' :P

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Looks like I will have to do some gene splicing and advanced cross-breeding techniques to have something that can be published in a scientific journal as 'Aces Pocket Monster' :( Back to the old drawing board...

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Several Trich crest varieties are from radioactive (or maybe colchicine) treated seeds from the crazy cultivators in Japan, possible you could use this technique in combination with grafting to find a new monstrose seedling, it would be a lot of work but worth it.

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Ok, here's my logic, correct me if I'm wrong:

1. TBM doesn't flower or produce seed.

2. So the original TBM or TBM's had to come from a T bridgesii seed, a mutation in a seedling.

3. Therefore, all things considered equal, any strain of T bridgesii can produce it's own strain of TBM from seed.

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You are correct, it is possible for any cacti species to produce a seedling of monstrose variety, just statistically improbable. As you can see from the entire probable millions/billions large population of bridgesii seedlings, there are three monstrose variations.

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I've found that lighting has the most effect onthese guys, ones that i left to grow in natural light had more ribs than ones i left under the fluros, one that was under the fluro looked like it was going to be a TBM but as soon as I moved it to the windowsil it went back to normal again'.

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I had a disturbingly good time bulk treating quite a few things with the old autumn crocus. For some reason it never occured to me with cacti. Anyone have any idea on the relative concentration difference, if any? I found standard ideas of killing most of your beans n ending up with a handful of scabby half dead things and one, if you are lucky, altered but living individual.. even my caveman techniques had good results and fairly limited mortality. Then I got worried and roundupped the area I did it in back to the dinosaurs when I started finding juvenile cobblers pegs, wandering jew, all kinds of already pesky things, looking fairly different than usual. be careful with this stuff, I find the odd difference in weeds growing where I know the bulbs lay dormant as it is. And it can give you cancer. But it's somehow entertaining in that crazed nazi scientist kind of way, until you find your monster is headed for the village :lol: Ended up killing that area every few months for nearly two years, gave it a light dig over and sprayed some more. Though if you can make a free range weedy form of your pocket monster I'm sure Australia will thank you!

happy prickles...

VM

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