The Salvia Battle in America

[apothecary]

Check these threads out

http://www.thenook.org/forum/index.php?sho...50377&st=30

along with this heartening quote

Dunno how many of you are following the original thread, but things are going well. At the Feb 7 Work Sesson of the Committee on Criminal Justice and Public Safety, they voted 8-4 to pass it on to the House, but in a much amended form. Instead of a ban, they have amended it to mere regulation of sale and possession to 18+. Possession by or sale to a minor would be only a civil violation, not even a misdemeanor crime.

The debate was interesting. The committee seemed to be split, and they were actually asking some tough questions of the ban's sponsor and the Maine Office of Substance Abuse director who was the main mover and shaker behind the ban. At the previous Public Hearing back on Jan 22, there were only two of us speaking against the ban, but we presented a rational case for why it shouldn't be banned. Both of us said 18+ regulation would make sense and we could live with it, so that's the way the Committee went with their amended vote. Of the four still not voting against, two were pro-ban, and two were anti- even this low level of regulation.

I strongly urge anyone in a state considering a ban (CA, OR, UT and a couple others) to start working the political process early. In ME, our voices were heard, common sense prevailed, and we're on our way to enstating the most lenient Salvia controls in the country.

I consider this a huge victory and hope that it will lead to, or at least be an example of how psychoactive substances can be regulated rather than prohibited. In a perfect world, this would form a model and precedent for legalization of other currently scheduled entheogens, starting with marijuana.

[Ace]

Wow! Talk about good news for our overseas pals! If only the Aussie government bothered researching it properly before giving it an immediate NO.... Lousy system

[KlUe]

Wow! Talk about good news for our overseas pals! If only the Aussie government bothered researching it properly before giving it an immediate NO.... Lousy system

Yeah I rekon....

[Ace]

And because of the governments decision to prohibit these plants, no different to cannabis, people are forced into hiding about such things... Learn from what history has shown us - PROHIBITION DOESNT WORK!

Like on the Simpsons with the Beer Barron - quality cartoons

[naja naja]

Like on the Simpsons with the Beer Barron - quality cartoons

I love that episode!

Kablamo!

[liftyourskinnyfists]

what worries me about a potential salvia ban is that it will be very harder to trade stock than it is with cannabis. I don't think that the leaf could ever be controlled but since salvia doesn't produce seed and requires a warm climate-i dont think there's many places in the US where Salvia can be grown outdoors- it will be much harder for the get or trade new plants. If a ban did happen I already have my sally plants, but I'd be nice to know that if something happened that I could get new ones.

I know many of you are in countries that have outright banned this sacred plant. I was wondering if anyone can share their oppinions on what the results of these prohibitions have been on the availability of salvia (plants/leaf/extract/other) in those countries. Is there still an underground market?

[Ace]

I dont think that it would just up and disappear due to prohibition. From what I hear, it grows exceptionally well in a hydro setup (probably not as nice as bush-leaf tho ), and for that reason, I think it would always be available in an underground market.

It is certainly illegal and scarce in Aus, but I have little doubt that it could be found if one searched hard enough... I think there will always be an underground market, albeit small in comparison to something like cannabis. After all, the 'powers' of the world cannot rid the planet of a plant that does so much for mankind, as is the case with cannabis.

Prohibition is a waste of time, and always will be. Sure, it brings numbers of users down somewhat, but it will put prison-populations up and crowd the system even more and feed more tax money into housing an average person just trying to get the most out of their life.

[shruman]

Plants are still around, where Im from I think I would b the only person in my town or surrounding districts (10,000 odd) 2 actualy know what it is.

A foaf recieved a plant not long ago.

[reptyle]

forced into hiding? people choose to hide cosd they dont wanna say "excuse me but thats just bullshit."

the mind tests people to see how much theyr eally want something, with things like salvia DMt and even cannabis, if u dont REALLY want it then itll remain illegal in your mind and u run the risk of gettin caught because u didnt love the substance as much as it loved u. th4e plant entities are hungry for affection and they will push you to the limits to see how much u love them. to get past a certain point of possible experince u have to have stated truely and undeniably that what you love is not undrer the jurisdiction of anyone else, the mind is simply that, the mind. gateways and doorways remain locked until this can be understood.

prohibition works in the sense that it does exactly what its actually meant to do.

manke money for the poeple that are already so underground that they dont need to hide.

and negates many of the revelationary experinces that can be had due to the fear and hiding element being a percentage of the thought scape when using a banned substance.

information reflects the individual attempting to compregend it, and as such if you hide,. it hides. if your scared its scary, if you love, it is love. free-free, so on and so forth.

its strange that people can have ful on entheogenic experinces and then return to the state of sayin oh but i could go to jail. bbaahhahha its the ultimate proof of having not actually been to the brink. not to talk shit or nuthin, but i was under the impression that shamanic world didnt stop when the drugs wear off.

gotto admit tho 500 salvia users all goin to prison in one day for standing up for what they believe lighting up in public would be a catastrophe for society. pphhtt.

spice fairies waltzing down the main street singing icaros and praising the most high. jail...yeah right...shamans dressed in full garb drinking the brew dancing with ratles feathers bells and whistles whilst performing healing cermeonies on significan landmarks....a court case?? bbahhaha.

spending months and months going through court cases speaking to wankers in blue suits who know nothing of what they are scheduling is some wacky salvia trip someone went on and got stuk in.

drugs are bad mmmk.

people are scared mmmmk.

terrorism is winning the war on drugs for the government. although they dont use bombs, merely the illusion of time. (ie in jail)

once we can see past our belief in percievable reality, we will be allowed to have our drugs back. Allah wants dedication, and at this point, people are only dedicated to building a collection and making a few $$$ on the side. not healthy.

nice work and cudos to the peeps spending their time working through the system though, i spose it exists for a reason.

[The Dude]

Wow man, I really like your posts. Curious what such blatant demonstrations of drug-love will have on our collective, like the whole gay pride parades I guess it can only go towards a larger accpetance in society. thats why i like Mardigrass in nimbin continuing in the same vein of exposure leading to acceptance and reform.

The truth is that law and order is a construction of threats to keep all in line. true picking out individuals is easy and can go someway into scaring the rest, that is the goal. But the battlefield is a mental one, authority have not the manpower or resources to arrest and imprison entire drug communities. Also like that 'the secret' shit, if you have fear, you will attract the nasties. Just like HST and dr. Gonzo going drug crazy in Las Vegas (factual or not) they didn't get caught cuz they were fearless! (almost fearless).

Drug Paranoia is funny, i've had my best "trancendental" experiences where everyone around me was freely doing drugs and just laughed at the very thought of fear... i took their msg on board and the fear dissolved.

Public drug taking demonstrations with large numbers should be had. Let ACA and such have their righteously indignant hatred of the druggies, who cares, good vibes will prevail!

===

Also Fuk'n Aye on the success in the states, wtf happened here? did we have any resistance to the banning or is this stuff all legislated automatically by some beaurocrats?

Edited May 16, 2007 by El Duderino

[liftyourskinnyfists]

I think that part of the problem with "coming out" is that it requires many people to be willing to take the plung to save everyone from the law. If one hundred people in a community came out and challenged the drug laws it probably wouldn't cause too much of a shock to straight society. Those hundred people would just be funnelled around to various prisons and the laws would continue to terrorize those of us who picked the wrong drug(s)(illegal). It would take a huge amount of people who all believe that change is possible and are willing to go to prison for that too happen. No great movements happen if the people don't believe in them. Users have been persecuted for so long that it hard to imagine a world where they can chose which plants/substances they want to for relationships with. That is why we(I) hide. I'm not willing throw myself in jail because I don't believe that there's a single person-let alone the thousands(or millions?) it would take prob. take-who will back me up. It would be purely a symbolic achievement on my part, because nothing would come of it. The drug community is still too afraid, too small, and too devided at this point. The vaste majority of the people who I've shown this part of me are people that I've never met in person. I hope for the future but remain realistic, and try to change things through the usual legal methods; letter writing, voting, educating, etc. All things are possible, but some paths are suicide. If anyone agrees or disagrees, I'd be happy to hear why.

On a happier note, I'm glade to hear that Sally D still lives in Oz. I doubt that their are very many cops in the US who can confidently distinguish SD from any other plant. If a person is careful they probably wont be confronted with any problems.

Edited May 17, 2007 by liftyourskinnyfists

[reptyle]

"I hope for the future but remain realistic,"

"No great movements happen if the people don't believe in them."

"I'm not willing throw myself in jail because I don't believe"

"there's a single person"

"who will back me up."

"All things are possible"

"I doubt that their are very many cops"

[cisumevil]

On a happier note, I'm glade to hear that Sally D still lives in Oz. I doubt that their are very many cops in the US who can confidently distinguish SD from any other plant. If a person is careful they probably wont be confronted with any problems.

Yeah cops here dont have a clue either, A foaf who was being busted for MJ reckons that the cops picked up a sally plant and said to his partner "It's not pot leave it!" ;)

[teonanacatl]

interestingly the price on salvia plants and kratom plants dropped significantly after prohibition, and alot more info on propagation of kratom was released after prohibition. So whereas only

[Guest Øskorei]

The open status of Salvia Divinorum in the USA is something I often consider, particularly now that it seems to have blown out into massive proportions online.

I'm not entirely comfortable with such a powerful tool being available to any old Joe Citizen with internet access, as it sort of cheapens the purpose of this herb. The sheer volume of people exposed to information via commercial online entities can't be a good thing, and I'm not surprised if laws are being banged out to put an end to the status that's presently enjoyed over there. All it's going to take are a few high-profile self-harm instances for the status to change (ie running around freaked out by being unprepared for the experience)

While it's unlikely to become a substance of addiction, there's plenty of people willing to jump into something new as an alternative to cannabis - in fact it's been specifically touted as such in the past. All would agree that this is the most irresponsible form of marketing, and an outright load of bollocks. "Stronger Than Pot". That's another beauty. Methylated Spirits is stronger than wine, but can I market it online as an alternative ?

Whilst I staunchly disagree with the illegality that Australia's lawmakers have imposed upon the s.divinorum as a 'drug', it at least goes a long way in regulating the users to a small, discreet number of people who are largely more responsible in their ethneo participation. Perhaps a more responsible and reasonable law for Australia might have been that the plant is legal to grow, but not to sell as a dried or extracted product for consumption. That way it's going to be utilised largely by those who have the dedication towards the whole experience. Caring for the plants that one consumes holds a nice level of 'completeness' to the journey - whether it be psychoactive or even food.

Lets look at some suggestions about Salvia:

It is not physiologically addictive

It's nature is not prone to abuse

It's unlikely to be sold as a 'party drug' due to it's effects

Usage regularity is occasional amongst repeat-participants

Fatality is rare (although who can tell what long term mental issues it might invoke)

It frightens many first-timers who are mentally unprepared

As for the story of the cop picking up a Salvia and passing it over, I don't doubt this at all. In a way it's fortunate that it became illegal relatively shortly after it's 'widespread' usage (to be taken in context). It means that therell be no need for extensive law-enforcement education. However more than one person has suggested to me in the past that the NSW training Academy in Goulburn have a selection of 'the Big 5' growing in their compound for the very purposes of new cops becoming familiar with recognising them. But let's face it, if one isn't interested in plants at all, once they graduate its unlikely there'll every be an ongoing training program. To speculate, however, drug-enforcement bodies might be better armed, though it's unlikely they'd be visiting the home-gardener when there's enough ice-labs and large-scale cannabis growers to focus on.

What we're dealing with in Australia is the witnessing of new laws against plant usage, and I for one never thought I'd see it in our lifetime. The cannabis growing issue is pathetic considering it can't be stopped and it only fuels a roaring black market trade that might be reduced within months if the laws were lightened (perhaps to a two-plant-quota as I believe SA & ACT once enjoyed). But the laws are so old (anyone know?). Perhaps one of the forums more legal-issue articulate members might like to discuss what the considerations/discussions were in 2001(?) when it was decided to badge a Schedule 9 on SD... for I fail to see any real basis on the ruling.

These are all open-ended thoughts intended to further discussion.

[liftyourskinnyfists]

"I hope for the future but remain realistic,"

"No great movements happen if the people don't believe in them."

"I'm not willing throw myself in jail because I don't believe"

"there's a single person"

"who will back me up."

"All things are possible"

"I doubt that their are very many cops"

I believe in the movement (the acceptance of sacred plants and their users), I just don't think we're ready to run out there and say, "Here I am." I know I'm not. If such a person was reading this then they must be on a computer in lockup.

How many do we have here?

Edited May 20, 2007 by liftyourskinnyfists

[liftyourskinnyfists]

AFOAF one time had his residence searched by peace officers(ha!!). Remarkably, they didn't even bother to look at any of this persons plants. Cops aren't botanists and with the exception of cannabis, your average cop probably wouldn't be able to identify plants growing right before his/her eyes.

[apothecary]

I think to disparage the ability of a group of 'shamen' (for constant want of a word between shaman and ethnobotanist) to go underground and to say that this is a lack of conviction on the part of the mind is simply bullshit.

reptyle, are you saying that any New Worlders that came under the scrutiny of the conquering Spaniards who went underground lacked conviction in their beliefs of the power their plants/fungi/cacti held for them?

I think it's pretty obvious that the only people who survived to retain and distribute this information are those that were smart enough to keep their mouths shut.

The ones who stood up and said 'éste es bullshit' got chopped up.

This is not an isolated occurance, we all know that this has occured all over the world, for many centuries and millenia past.

There are many points that could be raised here, along the lines of an entire conciousness shift being required, etcetera, but I think this has been covered almost infinite times before and we can all agree that such a conciousness shift is not yet present, no matter how close it is.

Lastly, I would like to enunciate my personal reasons for keeping my mouth shut, for not standing up to the law and saying 'here I am, this is me'.

The answer is that to me, such experiences and 'shamanism' are deeply personal and affect the very core of my being. To me, there is no requirement for justification or even a notification to any other people (be they law enforcement, or not) on my use of such sacraments.

I am inclined to discuss my knowledge with others who share my interests, and always try to use any of that knowledge to help those who it can help. But that is as far as it goes.

[Monk]

Yes, apoth. "Sometimes the cards are worth it to hide, if you don't lay 'em down." In the past, I was more outspoken and, in a way, whored out an ally that should have been kept as my bride. Karma came around and my ally she is no longer. Not wanting to repeat this, I'm much more reserved these days and try to limit my discussions to those entrenched in the great work already.

[reptyle]

are you comparing the shambot which is as you ma be able to gleam from the combo, the word you are looking for, to the thousands of people forced into slavery by the spanish when they arived in the americas?

The ones that werent forced into it either lived so remote that they remained unaware or were murdered for saying anythin other than "hail Mary".

Part of the reason there is so little information about the forgotten cultures is that the ones with the TRUE knwledge were slayed. the ones that chose to dig shit for the spanish did just that, dug shit for the spanish.

although i can see the reasoning behind people wanting to continue on in the same fashion they have been for...well...since their mommy and daddy told them that this i show the universe works. i mean jail would be cold and the people in their are huge, though there are heapsa crew stuck in their for selling weed that i would have no doubt you prolly purchased a few times. Personally i have a hard time sittin here typing rather pointless trite whilst thinking about those poor bastards, i smoke a bong i think of those forgotten crew. and ill tell u who has forgotten? the lazy scared shaman of our society. ethnobotanists research plants, they have theoretically no interest in the law or whose affected by it unless there is somethin holding them back from personal research, they live in the plane of research of material qualities and or socio-cultural aspects.

anyone who would call themselves a shaman whilst lettin all the crew sit and rot for 1-2-3-4-5 years whilst hiding in the shadows buying and selling things the arent willing to accept responsibility for can ony be considered a brujo, their minds ability to perform healing motivated by love is minimal, if at all existent. Their is a fractal reflection showing through all their action. and it propagates in this life and for eternity the very same.

I would have thought a shaman maybe ahead of the conciousness shift and begins to prepare others for entry into into a new time. Kinda like if a village of say 30-50 people were relocating in the middle of the jungle. there would be some effort put into making sure noone was lost and that everyone had enough food and water and knew the way. This role would be atributed to the tribes holderertogetherer.

The reason it would been made so much easier for the spanish when they arived is that the Shaman woulda said "oi theres some crew comming on big boats, their prolly gonna fuck me up, just do what they say for like 300 ears and you wil be fine, imn prolly gonna have to stand infont of the dudes when they arive and bless the crew chant some protective garble, breath fire at them and then allow them to slay me. But remember its ok cos ill meat you on the other side and will protect you from there till you arrive."

after they "chopped them up" the tribe woulda slaved away in silence knwoing only exoteric meanings for stories composed as maps by the shaman such that when the time came they could be guided back to the world.

so you see, the very core of your being isnt quite where you may think it is, and obviously it is effected by "sacraments", just as illness is sometimes exacerbated by the wrong medicine, the "mind manifesting" power of the psychedelic can often help you reduce your ego to the size of about hmm id say 5'10" mabe 60 kilos...

obviously you ma have a sweet lifestyle and everything goes right for you because the conciously created bubble you live in is based around whether or not you have to think about what colour sock your gonna wear, but their are people who have helped you smoke cones who have to think about hmmm, well...legt alone the crew in the amazon who lands are being destroyed so we can click away at computer screens with plastic monitor casing and hardwired chips with super mega unhackable doodads.

maybe the shift occurs when the mind and what it is as an organism is understood, and maybe when the earths contract ions begin and the conviction to push, push push, and eventual dedication to the newly born era wil be stronger than we are curently capable of understanding. So yeah i can see why people arent quite mentally developed yet to be alive, the sample of amneotic fluid i took though appears to show completely healthy growth paterns and we should expect the water to break in the next 3-5 years.

some will assist in the birth, some will be born, some will cry, some will giggle, its simply a matter of what game you wanna be playing at the time. Hide and Seek, Pin the tail on the donkey, spin the bottle, Im a little teapot dance, monopoly, scrabble, charades, cowboys and indians, or just FETCH. squash, halo 2, D&D, hop scotch.

the list goes on.

stay safe and make sure you dont forget about the race.

[apothecary]

are you comparing the shambot which is as you ma be able to gleam from the combo, the word you are looking for, to the thousands of people forced into slavery by the spanish when they arived in the americas?

Hardly. However I am not so omnipotent as to ignore the teachings of history.

The ones that werent forced into it either lived so remote that they remained unaware or were murdered for saying anythin other than "hail Mary".

Part of the reason there is so little information about the forgotten cultures is that the ones with the TRUE knwledge were slayed. the ones that chose to dig shit for the spanish did just that, dug shit for the spanish.

Right, that's exactly what I said. The ones who dug shit for the Spanish survived to pass their knowledge onto their children. That's knowledge I'm grateful for.

although i can see the reasoning behind people wanting to continue on in the same fashion they have been for...well...since their mommy and daddy told them that this i show the universe works. i mean jail would be cold and the people in their are huge,

Yeah, prison is cold, ugly and real. And yeah, I'd prefer to remain on this side of that fence, unless I know any action that would put me in there would have some positive impact or influence on the outside world.

So what is this positive impact exactly?

though there are heapsa crew stuck in their for selling weed that i would have no doubt you prolly purchased a few times. Personally i have a hard time sittin here typing rather pointless trite whilst thinking about those poor bastards, i smoke a bong i think of those forgotten crew.

lol, you have a hard time typing this pointless trite but you do it anyway huh...

I remember once you sat out the back of a beachside pub with me and a few others and argued vehemently on the fact that each individual has a completely self determined reality, based on their choices and actions. You wouldn't even budge when someone asked about starving kids in Africa?

So, what about self determination? People who sell drugs know the consequences of their actions, just as I know the consequences of mine. I have been confronted by "the law" in posession, and I have stood my ground with no excuse or justification and said come what may, this is my choice.

and ill tell u who has forgotten? the lazy scared shaman of our society. ethnobotanists research plants, they have theoretically no interest in the law or whose affected by it unless there is somethin holding them back from personal research, they live in the plane of research of material qualities and or socio-cultural aspects.

If you ask the right people they will tell you that when someone I knew was in trouble with the law, I have done everything in my power to help them.

anyone who would call themselves a shaman whilst lettin all the crew sit and rot for 1-2-3-4-5 years whilst hiding in the shadows buying and selling things the arent willing to accept responsibility for can ony be considered a brujo, their minds ability to perform healing motivated by love is minimal, if at all existent. Their is a fractal reflection showing through all their action. and it propagates in this life and for eternity the very same.

As I said above, the record shows that when it came down to accepting responsibility of my actions, I didn't budge an inch.

I would have thought a shaman maybe ahead of the conciousness shift and begins to prepare others for entry into into a new time. Kinda like if a village of say 30-50 people were relocating in the middle of the jungle. there would be some effort put into making sure noone was lost and that everyone had enough food and water and knew the way. This role would be atributed to the tribes holderertogetherer.

The reason it would been made so much easier for the spanish when they arived is that the Shaman woulda said "oi theres some crew comming on big boats, their prolly gonna fuck me up, just do what they say for like 300 ears and you wil be fine, imn prolly gonna have to stand infont of the dudes when they arive and bless the crew chant some protective garble, breath fire at them and then allow them to slay me. But remember its ok cos ill meat you on the other side and will protect you from there till you arrive."

after they "chopped them up" the tribe woulda slaved away in silence knwoing only exoteric meanings for stories composed as maps by the shaman such that when the time came they could be guided back to the world.

Do you have a martyr complex or something? It's plain to see that today many rituals and ceremonies in such places that still speak Spanish despite all else essentially only survived because the Shamen knew to keep their collective mouths shut.

Think of all the knowledge lost, empires come and go, but knowledge is eternal, think of how invaluable all that information would be today if those people had not been cut down.

so you see, the very core of your being isnt quite where you may think it is, and obviously it is effected by "sacraments", just as illness is sometimes exacerbated by the wrong medicine, the "mind manifesting" power of the psychedelic can often help you reduce your ego to the size of about hmm id say 5'10" mabe 60 kilos...

I never claimed to know the core of my being, only to know what affects it most profoundly.

obviously you ma have a sweet lifestyle and everything goes right for you because the conciously created bubble you live in is based around whether or not you have to think about what colour sock your gonna wear, but their are people who have helped you smoke cones who have to think about

Yeah, I'm perfect, with a super sweet lifestyle everything just goes right for me, I have managed to trick myself into thinking everything is peachy in the world. Where are you even pulling this from?

Nobody I know who sells weed has been busted, but if they had been, I would do everything in my power to assist them, just as I have done for the small few others I know who have been in a sticky law enforcement situation.

hmmm, well...legt alone the crew in the amazon who lands are being destroyed so we can click away at computer screens with plastic monitor casing and hardwired chips with super mega unhackable doodads.

Hah! There is an old computer nerd joke "a lamer walks into an AOL chatroom and shouts 'ALL YOU PEOPLE ON AOL CHATROOMS HAVE NO LIFE, GO GET A LIFE YOU FUCKING GEEKS' ..."

You don't even know what you're talking about. First of all, it's the west coast of Africa that is being sorely damaged by mining for silica and related materials to create computers.

Secondly, if you are so concerned about people dying from other peoples computer use, then what the hell are you doing now? MURDERER!

[reptyle]

nicely put.

[reptyle]

role playing kicks my arse every time. the person stuck in time has only as many options as open up to them i suppose, and as such each person does what...???

obvious matyr complex, but then that is a very complex thing. and also is grasping for a unified mind through activation of personality within context to be considered "weird"? maybe now it is...

there is a certain level of self indulgent alter ego massage seeping from my fingers whilst playing on this system, i dont know how i should feel about that...

as for information, keeping it alive is done through actions performed in service of truth, not by word of mouth, thats how chinese wispers occur, and can get very bizzare as u may notice when left unserviced.

As for amazonian oil being used to transport and manufacture the PLASTIC casing no doubt covering your monitor and sealing etc your correct, i know not a lot.

heres a nerd joke " whyd the rooster stand in the middle of the road?...cos it couldnt pick a side.

cockadoodledoo.