Big Day Out bans Aussie Flag

[KlUe]

There should be a world flag, screw all this national patriotism stuff all it achieves is dividing people and giving people an excuse and reasons to differentiate themselves from others when we are all the same.

Yea like this stupid argument. I'm with you narayan.

edit: I'm not posting in this thread again. Pointless arguing gets all of us nowhere.

I just despise hearing our flag being sworn at with hatred.

Edited January 22, 2007 by KlUe

[Ace]

I guess you are right - it appears it has even created a divide in this group of members... I agree that we are all one people (worldwide), but I guess the national borders are what seperates us. Though its the attitude that divides us, not a flag or logo. This is why we should be able to wear what we want when its as harmless as this. But I am contradicting myself and going in circles, so I'll quit while I'm dizzy

[FungalFractoids]

As long as it isn't discriminatory? How in any way is our flag discriminatory? It is different mate, very different to a no "black dress" code.

I mean that the event organisers can refuse entry at their discretion for any reason as long as the REASON (not the flag) isn't discriminatory; ie. thing like race, gender, disability etc.

They said the Australian flag mate.

Because there probably isn't a problem with people attending and brandishing other flags. I am going out on a limb here but I would be almost certain the organisers would treat any other flag the same way if they were creating problems.

I'm sure the event organizers have no idea what the Lebanese flag looks like anyway.

I'm sure they would, the red and white cedar ensign is quite ditinctive. But that's entirely irrelavent. A flag is a fucking flag, you don't need to be able to identify its country toknow its a flag.

Your views again respected, but I believe most Australians love our flag.

And that's cool too. But the bottom line is that when you are attending a private event you are obligated to abide by their conditions of entry. And if you can't attend the event without overtly displaying your love of the flag for six hours then maybe you should consider not attending.

I agree with you - it is a symbol of those things, but you fail to see the positive things it represents.

I agree, I do fail to see the good things it represent. For me, the things that are great about Australia lie outside of the political institutions and a flag could never represent them. And in the last few years there has been an ugly surge toward a very insidious form of patriotism and the flag in particular has been seized upon fascistic elements and is being used in VERY divisive way. It started started of Hansonism and has been seized upon by the Howard government, who uses issues such as the flag in it's 'dog-whistle politics' to instil fear and nurture the sort of attitudes that reached their full expression in Cronulla last year.

[XipeTotec]

If anyone has such a problem with this petty issue then they should just stay at home and leave the BDO for the majority of people who go to enjoy the music rather than proving something to the rest of society.

good one narayan, this conversation is crap, you all sound like mel and koshie

Edited January 22, 2007 by shroomytoonos

[nothinghead]

good one narayan...

I think this post should be edited for shroomytoonos' inappropriate and unproductive hatespeak.

[XipeTotec]

I think this post should be edited for shroomytoonos' inappropriate and unproductive hatespeak.

sorry cough, i edited the post, but it wasnt meant as hatespeak, and I think you are overeactibg, just a bit. I think you should now edit your post, as I take offence to being accused of hatespeak, thanks

Edited January 22, 2007 by shroomytoonos

[XipeTotec]

also, you all should be more concerned that it is against the law to burn the flag in protest

[nil]

I think this post should be edited for shroomytoonos' inappropriate and unproductive hatespeak.

i think the terms 'hatespeech' and 'hatespeak' should be legislated against along with the word 'skillset'. i'm more concerned with this than with flags. i think we should all learn to spell with marine flags and should begin communicating with miniature marine flags in deference to the deaf sailors that helped to make this country great. they've been silenced long enough, i say!

[hairyplant]

Note how they are only pushing it for the Sydney bdo...

Melbourne is far more multicultural...

but maybe there are more people in Sydney that live with the false idea that they live in a country that is not only theirs, but also that it and they where they come from and particularly their town (which is a shit hole imo) is superior to the rest of the world... hmmm bloody white bred shit.

(insert stirring shit up tone )

...and I live in north Queensland... ha!

[nothinghead]

i think the terms 'hatespeech' and 'hatespeak' should be legislated against along with the word 'skillset'. i'm more concerned with this than with flags. i think we should all learn to spell with marine flags and should begin communicating with miniature marine flags in deference to the deaf sailors that helped to make this country great. they've been silenced long enough, i say!

Semantics aside, you seemed quite adamant that we should protect religious choice from the linguistics of discrimination....

Edited January 22, 2007 by cough

[Slim Pickens]

What the fucks going on when you can't fly your own flag in your own country for fear of offending someone???

No way this sort of shit would be tolerated in any other country. Except maybe the UK. They seem to have gotten increasingly PC lately

I wonder what the BDO ruling is on Union Jack Tshirts or the US Confederate flag which also seem to feature at these type of events. Will people be turned away for wearing this sort of gear?

Nobody is worried about offence being caused. The concern is that the flag will be used as a symbol of intolerance and hate, which is thethe flag was not the problem and should not be banned. last thing that I, as a proud Australian, want to see.

"the flag was not the problem and should not be banned.

"If they have got a security problem, they need to deal with that, not with the flag. The flag is a symbol of unity," he told Channel 9.

- Andrew Robb, Immigration Minister

This is true to a point, but Swastika could also be considered a symbol of unity by some.

My biggest worry at this point is that the symbol and significance of our national flag is being hijacked.

For me, the things that are great about Australia lie outside of the political institutions and a flag could never represent them. And in the last few years there has been an ugly surge toward a very insidious form of patriotism and the flag in particular has been seized upon fascistic elements and is being used in VERY divisive way. It started started of Hansonism and has been seized upon by the Howard government, who uses issues such as the flag in it's 'dog-whistle politics' to instil fear and nurture the sort of attitudes that reached their full expression in Cronulla last year.

Cronik has summed it up perfectly, and I tend to agree that our government has used the flag to inflame and create a sense of polarisation amongst Australians. Remember that EVERY public school must now fly the flag or they will loose federal funding. And John Howard astutely defends almost ANYBOBY who drapes themself in the flag and vigorously attacks anyone who dare burn it.

Me, I think our flag needs to be changed so we can drop the stigma of bein the Pommy's toadies, which is what we essentially were when the nation was founded and flag designed, and move forward as an independant republic. But that is a topic for a different thread.

[nil]

Semantics aside, you seemed quite adamant that we should protect religious choice from the linguistics of discrimination....

i don't have a problem being anti-hatespeech, but i find the terminology annoying. ;)

[XipeTotec]

I didnt hatespeech, by the way

[nabraxas]

not wanting to get into the wrongs & rights ov this issue but i would like to make one point

but the fact is that Australia is a free country and no matter who or where people are they should be allowed to display our country's flag.

That's not quite right. The BDO is not a democracy & i'm sure if you check your tickets it says "Mangement reserves the right to refuse admission". If the management ov the BDO don't want people w/flags or if Quantas don't want to carry people wearing political t-shirts then they are quite within their rights to refuse admission.

[nothinghead]

Okay, okay, I yield: the poster used terminology generally used to describe a lifestyle choice in a denigrating and degrading way. Better?

Also, should Australia be a "free country" as klue believes, what use would these boards have for a Legal Matters forum? And as several people have pointed out, BDO is a private event and reserves the right to enforce dress codes, the same as clubs, pubs and the rest.

What I wonder is whether the people opposing this decision are genuinely upset that they cannot wear their favorite flag-bearing t's on the day, or whether they feel it is an attack on their nationality. With a ubiquitous awareness of the politics of discrimination a lot of people in the appointed mainstream feel they are losing out because of the perceived benefits bestowed on marginal groups. This leads not only to resentment of these groups but to a feeling of disempowerment which has recently led to violent attempts to reclaim a nationalistic authority which is usually based on the number of years a family has lived here. Flag-bearing is closely tied to an unease about ownership of "our country", due in part to the increasing dubiousness of such claims.

[Machine Elf]

When in doubt, consult the oracle known as Bill Hicks:

"I personally do not believe in burning the flag. It's a personal belief, but I'll tell you something, I think people are overreacting, oh, just a little bit. "Hey buddy, my daddy died for that flag." Well, I bought mine. Sorry. You know they sell them at K-Mart for three bucks, you're in, you're out, brand new flag, no violence was necessary. "Hey buddy, my daddy died in the Korean war for that flag." What a coincidence - my flag was made in Korea! No one – and I repeat, no one – has ever died for a flag. See, a flag … is just a piece of cloth. They may have died for freedom, which is also the freedom to burn the fucking flag, see. That's freedom."

Belf

[simon_marklar]

i think fugazi said it best -

"you draw lines and stand behind them

thats why flags are such ugly things!"

now if fugazi was playing at the big day out - i might actually go

[Green Osiris]

Dont you get it? This is the sort of dangerous Right-Wing Nationalism that this Government WANTS us all to feel. WHy is it that the abundance of flag-capes only surfaced since the racist riots (perpetrated by white 'australians') . Before then, this sort of thing was only seen at sporting events. Aren't there also a range of shirts that say something along the lines of "Australia - like it or fuck off" ?

I wonder if the inhabitants of this country 220 years ago had time to feel the same sentiments before they were either slaughtered or killed off by European diseases that were brought here by un-invited invaders....

If we are to observe the history of the new world, 200 years is a very short time in the scheme of things, and should white 'australians' really have cause be so patriotic when occupation happenned so recently ? For fuck's sake, the national flag still holds the union jack, despite the fact that by all accounts we are far removed from the commonwealth and Queen - it's merely a pointless exercise in histrionics that we even pay for a Governer-General to be appointed. The position is almost never called upon.

As awful as the colour scheme would be, a better representation of Australia's national flag would be to keep the southern cross as it is, and replace the union jack with the commonly accepted aboriginal flag motif. That way it would show a repectful identity to this lands people, whilst also recognising the identity that we now call 'Australia'.

I realise Im echoing the sentiments of some past posts, and I guess this is a subject that will divide the masses.

They're going the wrong way on a one way street!! And in front of the cops and all! But jokes aside, I know there are far too many idiots out there, but I guess you can find them in abundance globally....

LOL, thanks, that's the first real belly laugh Ive had for days. Well picked up.

[narayan]

As awful as the colour scheme would be, a better representation of Australia's national flag would be to keep the southern cross as it is, and replace the union jack with the commonly accepted aboriginal flag motif.

I've seen this on bumper stickers quite a bit lately. I thought it was a really good idea.

[trixxy3]

Frankly I am more surprised that the introduction to the big day out website hasn't drawn more ire from the holy righteousness that is the media. Munching on a fly agaric 3 times to enter the site, surely that means that the big day out promotes drug use, does it not? I am absolutely outraged every time I have to visit that site.

But man reading a lot of peoples responses to this on news.com.au, , very painful. Thing that pissed me off the most , people refering to "my" flag and "my" country, for fuchs sake it is ours, not mine. People have got to realise that the greatest thing about being Australian is that you don't have to be Australian to be an Australian. in spirit anyway.

[FungalFractoids]

Dont you get it? This is the sort of dangerous Right-Wing Nationalism that this Government WANTS us all to feel. WHy is it that the abundance of flag-capes only surfaced since the racist riots (perpetrated by white 'australians') . Before then, this sort of thing was only seen at sporting events. Aren't there also a range of shirts that say something along the lines of "Australia - like it or fuck off" ?

I wonder if the inhabitants of this country 220 years ago had time to feel the same sentiments before they were either slaughtered or killed off by European diseases that were brought here by un-invited invaders....

If we are to observe the history of the new world, 200 years is a very short time in the scheme of things, and should white 'australians' really have cause be so patriotic when occupation happenned so recently ? For fuck's sake, the national flag still holds the union jack, despite the fact that by all accounts we are far removed from the commonwealth and Queen - it's merely a pointless exercise in histrionics that we even pay for a Governer-General to be appointed. The position is almost never called upon.

As awful as the colour scheme would be, a better representation of Australia's national flag would be to keep the southern cross as it is, and replace the union jack with the commonly accepted aboriginal flag motif. That way it would show a repectful identity to this lands people, whilst also recognising the identity that we now call 'Australia'.

Some good points there regarding the union jack and the colour scheme. I read an article after cronulla that talked about the flag phenomenon at sporting events and asked whatever happened to the green and gold flag, which was originally designed as a anglo-celtic union and was a much more inclusive than the imperial union jack standard.

*edit*

spelling and link

The events in Cronulla demonstrate that Australian society is at the crossroads. The present path offers the prospect of continuing turf wars, increased gang and police presence on the streets, racial vilification and the suffering of the innocent. On the other hand, intent to travel the opposing direction might be as easy as making the symbolic gesture of changing the flag. Right now, it would most certainly help to disarm the white supremacists.

My patriotism is coloured green and gold, and so I was most struck by their chromatic absence on the streets of Cronulla and the preponderance of the Anglo-Celtic tricolour. Not even an ironic '80s green and gold Union Jack.

So again I ask, are we the proud progressive people who belong to the land of the wattle, or are we still merely a cringeful colonial backwater, where apartheid will grow ever louder as the message of our flag?

http://www.ausflag.com.au/debate/nma/age051227.html

Not to mention it represents the dear old wattle, and we know how much everyone here likes that plant ;)

Edited January 23, 2007 by Chronik Fatigue

[AndyAmine.]

also saw it a lot at schoolies the last couple of years, both flag capes and hanging them from thier balconies.

[occidentalis]

Banning the flag is a good idea but doesn't go far enough. All flags and other nationalistic parafernalia should be banned. Not just at the big day out, but everywhere. Fuck flags, fuck nationalism.

[FungalFractoids]

Word tha fuck up, my brutha!

[Kenny Blister]

i think fugazi said it best -

"you draw lines and stand behind them

thats why flags are such ugly things!"

now if fugazi was playing at the big day out - i might actually go

Propagandhi - STICK THE FUCKING FLAG UP YOUR GODDAMN ASS, YOU SONOFABITCH (Not to be gender-specific, of course!)

My father told me "Son it's futile to resist. You can topple the ideology but not the armies they enlist." I questioned the intentions of the boy scouts chanting "WAR!" "Well, that's the sound of freedom, son", he said (free to say no more). But wait a minute "dad", did you actually say freedom? Well, if you're dumb enough to vote, you're fucking dumb enough to believe them. Because if this country is so goddamned free, then I can burn your fucking flag wherever I damn well please. I carried their anthem convinced it was mine. Rhymeless, unreasoned conjecture kept me in line. But then I stood back and wondered what the fuck they had done to me. Made accomplice to all that I promised I would never be. You carry their anthem, convinced that it's yours. Invitation to honour. Invitation to war. Bette Midler now assumes sainthood. Romanticize murder for morale. Tie a yellow ribbon 'round the old oak tree my friend and "Gee, Wally. That's swell!" Fuck the troops (Insert corny but relevant/ poignant catch phrase here).