I want to come back

[Guest onemind]

Hi all,

I wasn't going to post this but I feel obliged after my rambling yesterday.

I arrogantly said that i had mastered dmt, boy was i wrong. I told you that i could get into this blissful state of jhana no matter how much dmt i smoked, so i thought, one final experiment. About an hour ago, i loaded up a huge amount of dmt into my pipe and it took 6 huge tokes to get it down. It wasnt jhana, it wasn't heaven, it wasnt another dimension, it was death. I was in sheer terror, panic, hell. About half an hour later i came back to my body and i was rocking back and forth with both hands clenched in prayer repeating the words, "I want to come back, I want to come back, I want to come back"..

It took a good 10 minutes to get my 3 dimensional human bearings back, i thought i was literally pissing my pants, that is as soon as i remembered i had a penis. It was really hot tonight and i was sweating before i took the dmt but I felt no heat or coldness for a solid 30 minutes.

I know there are good trips and bad trips but this was something more. This was pure panic and terror like i have never experienced. Similar i imagine to what people feel when sitting on the electric chair before death.

This moment has profoundly changed my outlook on life and i so appreciate the goodness in life and realise now the importance of being good. My immature, arrogant cold tone with people has made way to greater understanding that we are all in the same boat and now understand compassion.

This post isnt to put people off experimenting with dmt, it is a stern warning from someone who just forgot he was human and was trapped in a hellish existence. Small doses of dmt clears the mind, leads to stillness and a general sense of well being but for some reason, a huge dose takes you to the utmost edge of life and death.

So please, do not take my words of yesterday for gospel because the bottom line is, i am ignorant and i just dont know.

Goodluck all on your journey through life, i will never smoke dmt again..

[Auxin]

Wow man, sounds pretty intense.

It was the result of bad kamma (not just the experience but also, and just as importantly, the decisions that led you to megadose).

The important thing is to learn from it.

I think it was in one of Terence Mckennas books he said if you ever think you have DMT figured out it has a habit of quickly proving otherwise.

[occidentalis]

Goodluck all on your journey through life, i will never smoke dmt again..

As Auxin says:

I think it was in one of Terence Mckennas books he said if you ever think you have DMT figured out it has a habit of quickly proving otherwise.

Onemind, you still don't get it.

[Tripitaka]

Well, thats where i fell that the responsibility lies, both to yourself and to others. Once you have "smoked DMT", nothing seems the same again.

Its a well fitting cliche, but one to bear in mind when introducing people to the experience.

I feel that there is only a handful of people with enough egolessness to be able to facilitate these experiences for others and that its consumption should not be relegated to a mutual reference point in peoples drug taking repertoire.

[apothecary]

I would say this has nothing at all to do with dosage.

You showed some serious disrespect, and had your ass kicked.

People tried to warn you when you came to these forums. A superior attitude and a lack of understanding are your own fault to bear.

There is no lesson in DMT, there is no love, there is nothing in DMT that is not already inside yourself.

[ajna]

lol i don't mean to laugh, but i remember thinking when reading your post - 'i hope this guy gives dmt one more crack after making such a bold, solid statement.' ;) this is exactly how i would have predicted it.

no real need to say you'll never have dmt again though is there? maybe if you had said that last time you would have spent the rest of your life in a delusional state of "knowing" what it's all about

all the best on your journey mate

ajna

[Guest onemind]

Thanks all, I kind of was expecting the "I told you so" mentality.

It was the result of bad kamma (not just the experience but also, and just as importantly, the decisions that led you to megadose).

The important thing is to learn from it.

The thing is, the experience made me seriously doubt kamma. It is easy to put all bad things down to kamma or punishment or whatever but i think what i experienced was just the result of a malfunctioning human brain and not a place "out there" called hell.

I think it was in one of Terence Mckennas books he said if you ever think you have DMT figured out it has a habit of quickly proving otherwise

Indeed

Onemind, you still don't get it.

So please, do not take my words of yesterday for gospel because the bottom line is, i am ignorant and i just dont know.

Well, thats where i fell that the responsibility lies, both to yourself and to others. Once you have "smoked DMT", nothing seems the same again.

Thats the thing, no matter how bad it was, i went to bed shortly after, woke up this morning as usual and feel 100% normal and can hardly remember how bad it was. I dont think it will change me in the long run other than me avoiding messing with my brains chemistry.

I would say this has nothing at all to do with dosage

I disagree, in Dr Rick Strassmans book, the dosage studies showed that huge doses led his patients into extreme terror and they remembered very little about it. Joe Rogan on his DMT rant said that the bigger the dosage, the more the brain shuts the experience out. It is a drug after all and all drugs have dosage limits and over dosage limits so i am not sure how you can say my experience had nothing to do with dosage.

You showed some serious disrespect, and had your ass kicked.

Well, you can try to use my attitude for my bad trip but i think ghandi and jesus would have felt the same thing at my dosage.

--------------------------------

Now that I have had time to think about and analyze my experience i think i figured out what happened to me.

Just before I went to bed i had a quick memory of what it was really like that i didnt remember while writing my post last night.

It was a shattered mind. As soon as an image or experience came up it changed to the next one on a really fast infinite loop. There was no bearing point, just pure insanity. I wasnt scared at this point because there was no me, just flash after flash of non sensicle experience. The fear came when that state died down a bit and i remembered that i smoke dmt. I tried to cut it short and come back to my body but the trip just kept going and going because of the large dose. What really scared me is when i stood up but i still couldnt get the bearings of my room. There was no floor or walls and when i realised i couldnt get back, thats when the panic set in. I dont think the panic was bad kamma or punishment, just the normal human reaction of knowing that you have overdosed on drugs and cant get back to your body.

I think after all my drug experiments on conciousness i have come to realise the effect the brain has over human experience. I think alot of what we experience is generated by the complex neural nets between our ears and that is the result of evolution. I might leave the shaman, buddhists, mystics and religous tyoes alone for a while and make a serious study of neuroscience. My shattered mind loop is what i hear the schizophrenic existence is like and i think their experience isnt bad kamma, just a genetic mutation that caused their brains to malfunction similar to how people in car accidents end up with brain damage and experience hell. Now that my young healthy brain is functioning the way it should and its neural nets havent been flushed out with dmt i realise that your health is your wealth and blaming everything on the devil or bad kamma or whatever and not taking into account the workings of the brain to be somewhat primative.

[Auxin]

....The thing is, the experience made me seriously doubt kamma. It is easy to put all bad things down to kamma or punishment or whatever but i think what i experienced was just the result of a malfunctioning human brain and not a place "out there" called hell.

....I dont think the panic was bad kamma or punishment, just the normal human reaction of knowing that you have overdosed on drugs and cant get back to your body.

It seems you dont have a full grasp of the concept of kamma. People often emphasise the metaphysical or imponderable ideas of kamma like 'uh oh, did I get a speeding ticket because I pulled wings off insects as a child 3 lifetimes ago?' This conceptualization of kamma is just a small fragment of what kamma means, and is imponderable to the point of being unworthy of thought. Also kamma isnt a system of cosmic punishments and rewards. Rather its causality- this side of kamma is ponderable and is really the only part worth considering in this instance. Like in the above example of a guy saying 'uh oh, did I get a speeding ticket because I pulled wings off insects as a child 3 lifetimes ago?' no... he got a speeding ticket because he was driving too fast.

Driving too fast (formation of kamma)... *Apply causality*... Accident or Ticket or at least a negative imprint on his and others minds (result of kamma)

Thats what I was referring to previously. You got some results that you considered good, mmk... then you cultivated the delusion that you got it all figured out/could control it- delusion creates a negative imprint on the mind, it leads to wrong action or leads to the mind reeling when the delusion is broken. Enter bad kamma. Under this delusion you took a dose you ordinarially would have known would have been too much. A result of the previous kamma that itself added bad kamma because you didnt penetrate the delusion and thus took too much. Overdose, enter more bad kamma. Then you were in the experience and that bad kamma came crashing in on you- 1) unwholesome mind state 2) delusion 3) OD

I'm not ragging on you, or saying "I told you so", or saying you should regret it- just that you have a very powerful recent experience thats worthy of thought.

Check out the dhamma talks at BSWA some time, Ajahn Brahm learned under a very wise teacher and has some good insights into the mind. If you cant stand his british accent Ajahn Sister Vayama is a bit more formal in her teaching style but speaks pure aussie (OK I admit it, at least once while listening to a nun I thought 'mmmm aussie babe' )

Oh, almost forgot I wanted to mention. Buddhist "hell" isnt some place 'out there', its a mind state that can be experienced in life... and after all, the place you went was within your mind.

Edited December 20, 2006 by Auxin

[Guest onemind]

Hi Auxin,

Interesting thoughts

I think i have listened to just about every talk Ajahn Brahm has ever gave I was the moderator of the bswa forum for over a year, lived in Ajahn Brahms Monastery for 6 months and regularly go on retreats to his monastery which is close to where i live. The funny thing is, when i was coming back to my body, i had a copy of Ajahn Brahms new book on meditation next to me called "Mindfulness, Bliss and Beyond" and it made me remember goodness in the thick of my terror. I posted this thread on the bswa forum here :

http://www.bswa.org/modules/newbb/viewtopi...875&forum=7

I think it was all ajahn brahms training in meditation that allowed me to get into jhana on dmt and my overdose was too extreme even for a meditator.

Whether it was kamma, satan or whatever, it was bad and i've learnt my lesson

[Amulte]

I disagree, in Dr Rick Strassmans book, the dosage studies showed that huge doses led his patients into extreme terror and they remembered very little about it. Joe Rogan on his DMT rant said that the bigger the dosage, the more the brain shuts the experience out. It is a drug after all and all drugs have dosage limits and over dosage limits so i am not sure how you can say my experience had nothing to do with dosage.

in all cases you use as an example there is a profound lack of experience with the substance. its psychological, with experience one learns controll (knowing your mind and body helps), thus eradicating 'bad trips'. untill i hear about a death from DMT its not in the same catagory as other drugs like you decribe, its a biochem like serotonin, melatonin and the like.

tho my opinions, ideals and philosophies to the relation of psychology and spiritualism with psychidelics are much to popular dispute. so ill shuffle back to my dark corner LOL

remember experience could incriminate too

Edited December 20, 2006 by Amulte

[Guest onemind]

Ahh yes, the illusion of control.

The thing that which controls gets shattered into oblivion and you are left with a sequence of madness. I know what you are saying about ODing doesn't lead to death, just temporary madness which i would agree with.

So i could take the same dose again tonight, only this time, instead of panicking and getting scared i can just accept the state with the comfort of knowing that it will end and i will be back to normal within half an hour. But what would i be accepting? A frazzled brain that generates a state of complete madness. What is the good in that? What is the lesson? That large amounts of dmt renders you temprarily insane? The only good part of a bad trip is that you can understand the mentally ill and have more compassion for them.

There is nothing spiritual about a human brain going haywire, even if you conquer the fear, you are just left with fearless insanity.

Its not exactly something i want to do again and i am considering flushing whats left of my dmt down the toilet because i really see little benfit from using the stuff. Yes, it is different, and at times amazing but it just leads to more questions. If you want to remain i pioneer in this field, i wish you the best of luck and hope you figure it out someday.

[Amulte]

if a soul/spirit exists, dmt is the tool to push it out of the body. the psychi at 1st doesnt see the soul and mind as two different things so the speration of the two in the psychi is often relayed as death. this is your control, the knowledge of the spirit and learning it outside the realm of the psychi. DMT could be considered chemical astral projection.

one thing that might help is know that you wont physically die, but be prepared for it. playing your psychology into comfort and exceptance. but still the thought might present itself to one and take over if one it truely not accepting it. each to their own and forgive me for being incredable undescriptive.

as to weather DMT could cause long term damage to the mind id say results are varried at best. but if the soul exist and has the ability to learn outside the psychi, and your working towards betterment of the soul/spirit then the things you have learnt outside will be in your soul but not your physical memory.

again, forgive me for being vague

[Amulte]

Yes, it is different, and at times amazing but it just leads to more questions. If you want to remain i pioneer in this field, i wish you the best of luck and hope you figure it out someday.

sad but true we will know in our death, if correct we have a head start, if wrong we enjoyed living.

but always remember the long term effects on your physical body. if you cant accept the negative aspect of what could happen then its best not to do. on a psychological lvl this could be described as self destructive, but if it causes no long term damage then how could it be? reguardless i dont enforce nor dis encourge you in your descision here as it effects me and my life none. and reguardless of your decision, its the right one if you find happiness without hurt others ;)

[Guest onemind]

if a soul/spirit exists, dmt is the tool to push it out of the body.

You see, you are basing your whole research on the assumption that there is a soul. As a buddhist, i dont believe there is a soul or a self, just an impersonal process of cause and effect and what i think dmt does is chemically alter the neurons in the brain which causes the process to scramble into many many channels switching from one to the next really fast. I dont know about you but i am not going to risk my sanity modifying my brain on the assumption that an old book speaks about souls.

[Amulte]

one question shearly out of curiosity, why were you using DMT? im rather interested in why anyone does

Addition - Also just want to point out all i speak of are theory basied around psychology and spiritualism. i might not sound it but am rather skeptical about spiritualism, i just wont rule it out till i see evidence.

Edited December 20, 2006 by Amulte

[apothecary]

A told you so attitude?

We tried to WARN you... remember?

Now you come back and gasp as if this was unexpected or something.

And I assure you, what you experienced, while may also be possible to emulate with an extremely high dosage, was an ass kicking plain and simple.

The feeling you felt is dosage independant.

[Tripitaka]

Fifth fish: They haven't said much about the Meaning of Life so far, have they...?

First fish: Well, it's been building up to it.

Second fish: Has it?

Fifth fish: yeah, I expect they'll get on to it now.

Third fish: Personally I very much doubt if they're going to say anything about the Meaning of Life at all.

Fourth fish: Oh, come on... they've got to say something...

Other fishes: ... Bound to... yeah... yeah...

[They swim around a bit.]

Second fish: Not much happening at the moment, is there...?

[No_One]

....it was bad and i've learnt my lesson

I think the lesson you should take from your experience is stop trying to control/own your experiences by giving them labels, be content in knowing that you don't know, learn to love the abstract and reduce your dependency on knowing the details.

It sounds to me like you're trying to fit the universe into YOUR reality and not listening to what ACTUAL reality is trying to teach you about the shortcomings of YOUR reality. Maybe this is something you need to work on but also the source of your bad kamma - the universe knows you more than you know it so respect it or it will find a way to restore the balance.

Thinking that you know, and ajna alluded to this, is simply a delusion.

You say that your a Buddhist, read about Mindfulness and Emptiness and think about them in relation to your DMT experience.

You've hit DMT reasonably hard recently so I'd leave it for a while and think about what you have learnt, what misconceptions you have, what do you believe, etc. My gnome always retrieves more questions then answers anytime he uses DMT.

[Guest onemind]

The feeling you felt is dosage independant

There is no way you could know that. If you think i got my ass kicked because of my disrespectful attitude on this forum, why then did i experience 20 blissful heaven states all the while talking crap on this forum?

My set and setting were exactly the same as the other 20 times, the only difference this time was the dosage. Plain and simple.

[MORG]

If you think i got my ass kicked because of my disrespectful attitude on this forum

I think you misinterpret Apo.

I think his point was that you had disrespect for the substance you use.

[sobriquet]

If life didn't have purpose then the ideal state of being is the one of someone with Alzheimer's disease. They have no grasping for desire, no sense of purpose, no memory, no concept of who they or anyone else is, no philosophies one way or another, no cares, no ideas, no resentment, nothing.

When I described to you the horror I felt at seeing someone I once knew as a healthy functioning person as a madman in a psych ward, you scoffed. But the descent into 'hell' is possible while you are living. Have no doubt about it.

Some drugs can cause physical harm and even physical death, but that terror and mental death experience contains within it the potential for great harm.

I hope you can appreciate how it must be to not be able to come out of the hell of insanity and can understand how fragile the mind can be. Consider that most of those people who breakdown into insanity don't use drugs to become as they are. Some are brilliant people even. The number of mathematicians in history for example who descend into mental breakdown is there to be learnt; Georg Cantor, Nash, Alexandre Grothendieck (once thought to be the genius who would crack Riemann's hypothesis).

Anyhow, live and learn. Everything happens for a reason; even our discussion yesterday. It's up to you to learn from it.

[Guest onemind]

I think you misinterpret Apo.

I think his point was that you had disrespect for the substance you use

I see, but at no point have i lost respect for the substance. To quote me from the other day..

I come to the realisation that maybe a little bit of fear is good so that you dont lose respect for what you are doing

I was just as nervous and prepared before my big hit. I meditated as per usual for an hour before smoking it. Please dont get the impression that i went about this willy nilly. The big dose is what caused my brain to shatter and that experience caused fear.

Everything happens for a reason; even our discussion yesterday. It's up to you to learn from it.

What reason? I still dont think there is a grand plan. I think there is an eternity of illusion then one day, it ends. But i could be wrong, this could be god letting me know that my lack of faith in him leads to hell

[sobriquet]

More on Grothendieck who I consider a fascinating individual...

http://www.lewrockwell.com/spectator/spec262.html

[Guest onemind]

hehe, i just read that article. There is a lot of similarity by us meanig of life characters, borderline genius and insanity types and the dreaded decent into hell..

I sleep on the floor, am in 3rd year computer science and waste too much time trying to figure things out which has led to various states of madness and i see no difference between me and the countless other human beings who take life a little too seriously. The thing about my teacher, ajahn brahm, is that he was a gifted theorhetical physicist from cambridge university who threw it all in to become a buddhist monk. I am not sure what you are hinting at Sobriquet, good and evil, heaven and hell, god and satan, meaning, purpose, the same old theme of the universe. You seem to admire a madman who never got to the bottom of things while i admire buddhist monks who do get to the bottom of things.

‘that I would eventually succeed in getting to the bottom of things.’

[Amulte]

the only one answer i there is no ONE answer