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Yeti101

Lespedeza bicolor

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Has anyone confirmed the usefullnes of this plant for summoning the elves? I have yet to find a company over here selling the seeds but it is widely grown in the U.S. and the seed appears to be very cheap there.

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torsten was selling some seed,so do other seed retailers in aust.i had some ,but had no long term success with them,sesame seed sized legume seed.

t s t .

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Anything new on this front?

Also- any info on L. bicolor vs L. bicolor var. japonica?

ARE L. bicolor var. japonica and L. japonica infact different critters?

AND what about L. bicolor var. bicolor?

Just so I'm not ONLY asking questions I did find out that the mysterious lespedamine listed as being in there too is 1-methoxyDMT, a hydroxylamine derivative. No clue on effects though.

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In Trout's Notes FS-X7 version 4-2002 it mentions "Positive TLC assays for NN- of seeds, seed pods, stem bark and roots. co -tlc by Appleseed

"A successful bioassay of 30 g of red fall laaves has been reported by wyrm; pers communication"

is also mentioned.

"japonica: DMT in plant. Gota et al 1958.

Major alkaloid in leaf and one of the main alkaloids in the root bark. Root bark showed higher concentration than the leaves. Morimoto and Matsumoto 1966."

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From "Tryptamine and related compounds in plants" Phytochemistry, 1977, Vol. 16, pp. 171-175

Lespedeza bicolor leaves and roots contain:

DMT, DMT-N-Oxide, bufotenine, MeO-DMT, MeO-DMT-N-Oxide, Lespedamine.

References:

1) Goto, M., Noguchi, T. and Watanabe T. (1958) J. Pharm. Soc. Japan 78, 464.

2) Morimoto, H. and Matsumoto, N. (1966) Liebig's Ann. Chemie 692, 194.

...

What I'd be interested to know is- seeing how lots of DMT containing plants have the highly water soluble N-oxides of the 'goodies' has anyone heard of people adding zinc dust to an acidified extract and keeping it on a magnetic stirer for a few hours to increase yield?

Just one of those things I think about when I'm wishing I were somewhere where it would be legal to try such a thing.

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I have a plant but its not very healthy. I´m going to make some cuttings soon. I have no alytical work but i have in mind that i once encountered one. I had to cut out the dogs nose on the first pic. He doesn´t want to be famous :) EG

th_7b4_HPIM3354aaa.jpg

http://209.172.55.7/img.php?loc=loc169&ima...HPIM3354aaa.jpg

th_e53_HPIM3350aa.jpg

http://209.172.55.13/img.php?loc=loc143&im..._HPIM3350aa.jpg

th_fa2_HPIM3349aa.jpg

http://img105.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=l..._HPIM3349aa.jpg

[ 22. August 2005, 12:28: Message edited by: Evil Genius ]

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Some years back I sent K Trout the rootbark of Japanese Les. Bi. for study and he noted that nothing new in particular was observed from his analysis.

It took me many hours to harvest the plants and then another three hours or so to carve off the root's bark so that there would be enough for him and some locals to run some tests. Overall, harvesting the rootbark was slow and arduous.

Aquaintances here in Japan who attempted to see if synergy with meclobemide would occur proved unsuccessful with 30-50 grams per person, of this particular rootbark that was powdered and then steeped in sub-boiling water for 30 minutes. Instead of any notable dmt activity, only the sedative effects of the lespedemine (sp?) were strongly apparent. There was little difference between ingesting 30-50 grams of tea with or without a MAOI. The predominate effect of lespedemine is fairly boring not euphoric and sedative, it induces drowsiness. The drowsiness lasted much too long, well through the next day, even after a fitful sleep after the first day. The sedation even seemed to be slightly noticeable on the third day. I can not see any reason to do any more research with this plant unless you are looking for a sedative. The DMT must be in very small amounts.

DMT is said to be most prevalent in the root's bark in early spring, just after winter when the plant has just awoken from dormancy. Why? The roots have likely stored up chemicals probably to deter burrowing rodents or insects during dormancy, (snowy winter here) or it is also possible that the chemicals are stored up upcoming components of spring's new leaves, stems and defence.

Of course someone else may find plants from a different region, slope aspect, season etc which will prove a more fruitful source of DMT, as the plants I dug up were all from one place at one time.

With so many richer sources of DMT, and the lack of anything exiting occurring in the predominate lezpedemine, the other mimosa relatives make more sense to study. If lez-bi were the only plant available, then of course it would be worth researching, but not without a good separation funnel and a bunch of solvents to remove unwanted chems.

[ 22. August 2005, 13:06: Message edited by: hoodoo ]

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But i thought it was the lespedeza JAPONICA not bicolor with the tryptamines?

i dont see any reason not to investigate alkaloid content of the one reported to contain some.

I would not try extracting bicolor since bicolor is reported not the one reported to contain any d.

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And when you say "nothing new", you mean he found similar concentration of alkaloids than previous researchers?

Or you mean he didnt find even that?

hmm..

well mimosas are pretty obvious carriers.

i have yet to find a mimosacae plant that would

NOT yeild ANY tryptamines in study...

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hmm..

so, your saying that afterall.. 1-meo-dmt is a DROWZY SEDATIVE ?

i wonder if its so also when smoked in its extracted form..

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hmm.. strange also that previously NN has been reported to be predominant to the methoxy ones?

:o weird, to say the least, all this strangeness just makes me wanna investigate it more.

since no mimosacae grows where im from and certainly if grows wont tolerate -30 celsius and my house is max plus 8 celcius in winter.

ofcourse would have a good sep. funnel and GOOD solvents. and lots of experience in extraction!

hehehe

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First off, a great book with lots of info on this and similar plants is available in "Trout's Notes on the Simple Tryptamines,(2002)" Probably best to gt the book.

I am not familiar with L.japonica, that is a new one to me, I think it may be misnomer. Where did you hear about it? My books on the local flora here show no record of any plant other than L. bicolor var japonic inthis part of Japan. In Japan researchers sometimes add "var japonica" to any plant found growing here without what I beleive is proof that there is any true variation of species from those plants in other parts of the world. I beleive that the north american variety is liklely extremely similar to this japan variety, but I have no proof of that.

As it stands, I investigated only L. bicolor.japonica.

As Trout and other's note, traces of DMT are indeed found throughout the plant, my point regarding my lack of interest is that the amounts of DMT are very small, and are nearly insignificant, for myself, a person who only boils things in water (like my socks) or occasionally steeps things cold in a few other solvents, and I am not interested in what I find to be an arduous task; separating the bufotenine and 1-methyl-dmt out. Of course some people enjoy doing that, I probably would too if I had a place and equipment to do so. I would be happy to take a look at the extracted matter from someone's sep funnel though!

K.Trout notes no information to contradict that DMT occurs in L bicolor var japonica.

I beleive that if one were to consume enough DMT from the leaf or bark total water extract for an ayahuaska experience would require the additional consumption of a lots of bufotenine and 1-methyl-dmt, which very well might render the experience thoroughly unenjoyable. Wyrm successfully did so, although no details exist as to whether it was pleasurable or not. Bufotenine can cause a person to have a red face that feels like a boil about to pop. For that matter, so can 5-meo-dmt. The former of course, can also be very toxic to humans.

There is some question as to whether early researchers may have misidentified 5-meo-dmt as dmt. (K.Trout).

From the book "Some Simple Tryptamines" by K. Trout:

"..........30 dry grams of the red fall leaves grown in the US which was reported to be successfully ingested as a fully active Ayahuaska analogue." However bear in mind this plant contains both DMT,Bufotenine, and onlythe Japanese variety has been seen in analysis. Other Lesspedeza species are rumoured to be active but specific details seem to be thus far lacking. More work is clearly needed."

DMT found in L. bicolor var japonica (Goto 1958).

Rootbark showed higher concentrations of DMT than the leaves. (Morimoto & Matsumoto 1966).

DMT found in L. capitata, (1998,Ratsch citing kinder, 1991)

I do not have a scanner and do not wish to copy anymore of Trouts book.

lespedamine: 1 -methoxy-N-N-dimethyltryptamine, analgesic (Ott)

5-methoxy-dmt-n-oxide (Morimoto & Matsumoto, 1966)

5-meo-dmt (Morimoto & Matsumoto, 1966)

I do not beleive 1-methoxy-dmt is hallucinogenic as I have personally eaten a large amount on three or four occasions and each time was disappointedly sedated for a few days and felt dull-headed for three days or more. (worse than normal I mean!) It may be that at larger amounts than I would wish to test upon myself, that 1-meo-dmt would shine through though.

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I sent the fall red leaves, seeds and root bark to Trout and others but I can not find any notes on what percentages of alkaloids were in the material I sent them, it was proabably 5 or more years ago and you know how memory goes.

I see K. Trout sometimes pops by here, maybe he will give details.

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You may need to smoke the 1-meo-dmt to get "tryptaminic" effects.

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http://had0.big.ous.ac.jp/~hada/plantsdic/.../nisikihagi.htm

http://had0.big.ous.ac.jp/~hada/plantsdic/...nisikihagi2.htm

this is lespedeza japonica, the plant i obtained from a japanese nursery, it looks totally different to lespedeza bicolor var. japonica.

my lousy pics are here:

http://www.betterphoto.com/gallery/dynoGal...photoID=1128004

and the link to my report about the findings is earlier on in this thread.

ok, well 0,25% tryps is not a "small amount" for me at all, neither is 0,16%.. ..not at all mate.

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and i most definetly dont want to have anything to do with any ayahuasca admixtures, yuck disgusting maaan.

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ps: i cannot afford trouts books, though i do know where to purchase them. i might get a peek of the info where they sell them if i ask the mama nicely..

thanks for the tip though.

i really appreciate it :)

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About the "japonica" names given to plants growing here,

I know what you mean that they "sometimes" add the name to some plants there, BUT there is japonicas that are only found in japan, i found a few and got pics too.

one the lespedeza japonica,

then phragmites japonica, TSURUYOSI

http://had0.big.ous.ac.jp/~hada/plantsdic/...i/tsuruyosi.htm

of wich the rhizomes ill research someday.

and also

calysteiga japonica,

http://protist.i.hosei.ac.jp/Asagao/Yoneda...CD2522/D/05.jpg

of wich i managed to take cuttings from,

also will love to research along with Calysteiga Sepium and Convolvulus Arvensis (Both found in my home country)

but i know what you mean about "japonica" being added to some plants native to somewhere else too.

dont let it fool you though

Lespedeza Japonica contents ill tell you when i know too..

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ahh found the other ref to Lespedeza Bicolor Var. Japonica, slightly more detailed in someway, at least in listing of different compunds:

* Lespedeza bicolor var. japonica [DMT,5MD,l,rb]

5-METHOXY-N-METHYLTRYPTAMINE Bark, BUFOTENINE Plant,

BUFOTENINE-OXIDE Fruit, N,N-DIMETHYLTRYPTAMINE Fruit,

N,N-DIMETHYLTRYPTAMINE-OXIDE Fruit, N-METHYLTRYPTAMINE Bark,

HOMOORIENTINE Leaf, LEUCOANTHOCYANIN Plant,

LEUCOPELARGONIDOL Plant, ORIENTIN Leaf, SAPONARETIN Leaf,

VITERINE Leaf

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You seem to be pretty interested in this one :)

Unfortunately there are few informations available. But it seems that the plant is going to become more available in the future due to the commercial trade, so maybe we´ll know more about the contents soon. I personally don´t believe that there is much to find but until we don´t have more results in this area, this is only speculation. As we know, a lot of Plants showed a variable alkaloid content during the year.

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Yes!

i am very interested in this one, i am also very used to variability and interrested especially in that particular aspect of plants, since i been working with many plants with variable contents,

a.baileyana, phalaris etc, im not put off by a insteady content!

yes but is the japonica gonna be available too?

sure hope so, for sake of research..

..ill tell you soon whats the % of tryps in JAPONICA if notable (im not talking bout bicolor here,though i do plan to report that too someday)

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Rarely have I seen such renewed exitement over a plant I long ago dismissed due to finding mimosa hostilis rootbark cheap from Maya and others. Mimosa needs no stinking chemicals. But in the name of science, youhave perked mycuriosity a bit too. I will have to get out there and take some dgi-pics and colect some seeds.

Tinya:

It is interesting to see there is indeed a Lespedeza japonica. I can see that the flowers are different from the local plant here from those pix zooms. I wonder what L.capitata appears like- if it is similar? Seems not.

Apothecary: I smoked the water extract concentrate and it did exactly the same thing that it did when taken orally, it was a boring sedative. If the fat and other nonessenitals were removed (they were not) it may prove more interesting to smoke (subjectively).

Another thing is, at that time I researched the plant I was interested in Ayahuaska analogues and anything trippy, these days I am not, I have absolutely no interest in tripping on anything that lasts a long time like ayahuaska etc. I am more into Kratom, sedatives and analgesics - since I 45% crushed my L-1 vertebrae while skiing or should I say falling, 6 meters on my head off a cliff landing on the bottom of a water filled streambed below. So it may be that if that sedative effect from 1 meo dmt is significantly analgesic then I would indeed find a purpose for it, without it necessarily being tryptameanic in the common sense.

er, what is common sense, anyway!

L B j grows along roadsides in numerous quantities, it is very very common, it is simple to grow, tolerates 5 weeks of drought, 4 months of freezing under 6 meters of snow, in other words, it is one tough bastard. It produces a kazillion seeds and flowers.

The leaves are simple and harmless to harvest, the root bark a real pain in the ass and taking it ofcourse kills the plant. Some plants are well over two meters tall and if ten or 15 years old the stalk's base is as big around as my wrist, and the bark above 2-3cms thick at most, but clearly a harvestable amount. The root bark has a yellow layer, a red layer and the outer, gray bark.

Also, how would one remove the 1-meo-dmt?

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quote: "Apothecary: I smoked the water extract concentrate and it did exactly the same thing that it did when taken orally, it was a boring sedative. If the fat and other nonessenitals were removed (they were not) it may prove more interesting to smoke (subjectively)."

hmm.. i dont think smoking dimy-salts (water extract without basification..) is really very healthy, never mind the fats and oils, they are not that unhealthy, but smoking a salt is very bad for your lungs..

well.. since usually vasculary plants with variable content dont contain any freebase form of alkaloids,

a water extract will be totally inactive when smoked due to the fact its in the ionised salt-form, and how to seperate 1-meo, well chromatography ofcourse!

by the way i got 100 seeds of LBJ :) )) !!!

yes, hardiness is something great for us ppl from the cold!

hmm.. well ofcourse if interrested in D then maya mhrb is the way to go..

..if just interrested in researcing the enzymic processes inside a varying-content plant..

then maya mhrb is the least interresting to research..

ill post pics of my ethnogarden and natural habitat gallery soon for you to see.

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btw: hoodoo!

1 more question since your from japan, i gather:

any experience with desmodium species ?

i managed to harvest few hundred grams of desmodium paniculatum foliage and some oxyphyllum foliage also.. ..so far realtively unresearched (i prefer unresearched plants myself !!!)

i also found at least 3 desmodiums i couldnt ID on the spot, ive got pics and will ID them though..

lots of desmodium somewhat rich in tryptamines there too (like motorium cagneticum etc), and its at least as plentiful as LBJ and grows in the same places..

..and desmodiums are also called HAGI !

i guess its just from the shape of leaves and flowers why though..

ill get to go to japan again next new-years and plan to research the plants there more that time.

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