Alkaloid-increasing methods

[mu!]

After having grepped this forum and many others, I thought I'd gather up what techniques/methods I've come across for increasing the alkaloid content of psychoactive (namely mescaline-containing, but not limited to) cacti.

I hope this thread might serve as a more consolidated and focussed area for various alkaloid-increasing methods and discussion thereof aswell (SAB, where the community benefits)

I'd also like to see feedback on the techniques used/mentioned, whether they be your own or someone elses. Was it successful? Did anything go wrong as a result of applying your technique? Have you combined any techniques? How could you tell their was an increase in alkaloid content? Is there any scientific foundation on your technique (or did it just seem to make sense at the time)?

Many methods rely on the fact that alkaloids present are used as part of its defense system.... some food for thought.

Here are the methods I've come across.

• Injecting Tyrosine into core/flesh of cactus. The cactus apparently converts tyrosine into l-dopa, which is converted into dopamine, then normescaline and finally mescaline. The injection should be done on a water-starved specimen (to aid absorbtion), approximately 1-2 months before harvest.
  
• Various forms of physical/environmental stress. Too much water, too little water, too much sun, too much shade. Also (sterile) scarring of the flesh.
  
• High-nitrogen (yes, you read correctly) content in soil. With mescaline being a nitrogen-based compound, I'm guessing the cactus would be more readily able to produce said compound with there being more nitrogen available. That is my theory for this technique anyway.
  

I have applied scarification to one cactus, but have yet to ascertain its potency. Maybe within the next few weeks hopefully

Humbly awaiting constructive feedback and any corrections..

[marsha]

this may come out a bit fundy hippy but if we expect anything natural and spiritual from such plants maybe its best we dont torture them? scar them ingect them and be a lil more respectful of their lives!

[teonanacatl]

Injecting Tyrosine into core/flesh of cactus. The cactus apparently converts tyrosine into l-dopa, which is converted into dopamine, then normescaline and finally mescaline. The injection should be done on a water-starved specimen (to aid absorbtion), approximately 1-2 months before harvest.

I wonder if tyrosine hydroxylase is saturated in cactus like in people? LOL anyway Id use DOPA, and dont inject it, I think most of it would just flow back out again later. The way we deliver isotopically labelled precursor to plants at uni is load them into a capillary tube and stick it into the plant which then sucks them up at their leasure. So a capillary tube leading to a flask full of dilute DOPA would be better IMO. And I doubt that I would actually produce significantly more mescaline, there is a reason the cactus isnt producing that much and unless it is an enzyme is saturated and your able to bypass it then equilibrium will take hold.

Various forms of physical/environmental stress. Too much water, too little water, too much sun, too much shade. Also (sterile) scarring of the flesh.

I can tell you that too much water doesnt do it and also too much sun. Ive spoken many times about the shade idea and a foaf will actually be testing it soon!!!

High-nitrogen (yes, you read correctly) content in soil. With mescaline being a nitrogen-based compound, I'm guessing the cactus would be more readily able to produce said compound with there being more nitrogen available. That is my theory for this technique anyway

Yeah you gotta fert them and give them what they want, not just nitrogen though many enzymes require metal cofactors so must provide them aswell.

IMO most of the socalled alkaloid increasing methods are bull. The only one I would lean towards was shade grown or cuttings kept in dark and not because it stressed the plants. One other thing Ive wondered is the amount of mescaline in a rotten cactus, will havta test that aswell. The major factor in potency is genetics, with your methods I think perhaps only a small increase in alkaloids would be observed, so would it really be worth it? If you dont want to eat so much cactus then extract it

Edited to say what yowie said is true most people in oz are fine with the cacti how they are, there are some potent ones out thier and everything you do to the cactus is part of the experience, I cant imagine having a good time after ingesting a cactus I mutilated just so I didnt have to eat an extra 10cm.

WELCOME :D

Edited November 29, 2006 by teonanacatl

[mu!]

Nice feedback for a first post i reckon Thanks

I was expecting a few ppl to come to the defenses of the cactus, and I'm glad you did. I suppose the low-volume content of alkaloid-increasing technique literature is so limited because either people are too lazy (I kind of doubt that for a hot subject like this though) or because they've come to developing such a deep relationship with the plant that indeed scarification and unnatural actions on it would seem detrimental and produce nasty vibes. This doesnt lead to any benefit for either party obviously.

I think developing a relationship with a certain plant is a cornerstone in any definition of ethnobotany, this being truely realised recently as I've started to take more of a liking to my "pet" cacti. It must be the new growth, the cacti are sending out good vibrations to me as a result of my care for them ;). Call it karma or positive feedback or whatever. Its only now that I've been able to sense a deeper perspective to the whole plant-and-human symbiosis thing.

As for the shade technique, it stands out as an easier, tried and true method for any perceived alkaloid increase. Not only that, but no harm would be incurred on the cactus (awwww ).

With that being said, and taking into account everything else mentioned in this thread, the next step seems to be a progressive one, that in the direction of "What leads to a species of cactus having higher alkaloid content than others?". This question, I think, has far more valuable consequences.

Theres my 2 cents anyway

Cheers

[teonanacatl]

With that being said, and taking into account everything else mentioned in this thread, the next step seems to be a progressive one, that in the direction of "What leads to a species of cactus having higher alkaloid content than others?". This question, I think, has far more valuable consequences.

Genes are where its at But cultivation conditions aswell as age are important also.

[alkatrope]

Selective breeding.

Edited December 1, 2006 by alkatrope

[SirLSD]

if i were going to try it (which i will not!) i would think dopamine injections would be far more effective than tyrosine or dopa as it is 1 or 2 steps further along the biosynthesis pathway. addition of S-Adenosyl L-Methionine could theoretically greatly increase the methylation of the dopamine as the plant might otherwise struggle to methylate such unnaturally large levels of dopamine. it would be very interesting to test the results of such an experiment if someone had a reliable accurate method of quantitative analysis. a friendly pharmacist or doctor could get 5 sterile dopamine concentrate ampoules (200mg/5mL) for about $34 and SAMe can be bought OTC or over the net.

[mu!]

One thing that just came to me, and which is pretty standard in green-thumbery, is companion plants - plants that improve the health/growth/state of other plants!

Seeing how cacti are desert dwellers and hence probbaly dont come across many friends, maybe they're just waiting for that special someone to come along and make it feel all good inside

If not for increasing alkaloid content, then for growth at least. Seems pretty plausible to me. Sure would be interesting to see if anyone has found any cacti companions already.

[mescalito]

Not sure on increasing alkaloid content but recently after a regulator valve failure on my hot water tank,a reasonable amount of 60+deg C water poured onto a pot with one of my pups and the increase in size afterwards was quite dramatic!!

I thought it would die for sure.

It's the tall fat one in the middle.

Edited December 2, 2006 by mescalito

[mescalito]

They're a lot bigger and healthier now since that pic.

PEE on your friends they love it

[mu!]

Very interesting outcome there Mescalito. Some hot water treatments might be in order very soon

[Gunter]

I am of the opinion that genes are the biggest factor, right after that is environment, which in my experience is ideal when it is optimal in terms of growth in regard to the maximum rate and size.

I think happy plants are ideal, so to speak.

[apothecary]

Apparently an observable characteristic is that slower growth is more potent than quicker growth. i.e Lophophora vs Trichocereus.

I can maybe see how that works.

If you subscribe to this idea, then I would say mutilation and shade growing both fall under the category of slowing growth.

As for helper plants, you would be surprised. For example Lophophora can be found growing in the shade of Prosopis laevigata, a nitrogen fixing legume.

[apothecary]

Oop. Forgot to say I agree, the two main influencing factors will be specimen age (i.e. maturity) and the genetics.

[Shroomie the Shaman]

Wow!!! I will have to try the hot water thing...but which baby do I possibly sacrifice?

Edited December 5, 2006 by Shroomie the Shaman

[Shroomie the Shaman]

Aaahhh...some of these methods confirm some of my ideas, I usually take the cacti to be "used" from my garden into my bedroom, pot and all on the new moon, then the said cactus becomes the first and last sight and thought every day until the full moon, on which I cut ect... By this time I have been completely preparing for the journey for approx 2 weeks. I have tried a quick preperation several times and it is never as good. It is easily twice as good after bringing it inside for the two weeks and depriving it of all water and light, so I can boldly state that shocking the cacti (always been a Tricho.) works really well when it comes to alkaloid content!

[faustus]

a friendly pharmacist or doctor could get 5 sterile dopamine concentrate ampoules (200mg/5mL)

what do they use dopamine for?

when in comes to increasing alkaloid content, i vaguely remember someone mentioning that you can make a cutting and keep it in a dark place for a few months. anyone tried this?

[Shroomie the Shaman]

Yes, storing the cutting(s) in a dark place for a while seems to work for me (always stronger than fresh ones.) To boost the amount of alkaloids extracted during preperation it is also good to slice the cuttings up and place them in a bowl...cover with plastic wrap so the bowl is airtight and freeze overnight, in the morning, remove the wrap and place in the sun to thaw out, cover again and repeat the process for at least 3 days. This breaks down the plant cells and after doing this a few times you have a bowl of translucent slices and a whole lot of yummy goo. :drool:

[mu!]

Well I've been applying the hot-water treatment to my peruvianus, and it seems to be getting healthier and healthier by the day.

What I've been doin is boiling water in a kettle, letting that sit for a few minutes, then splashing some on the cactus and waterring around it aswell.

A layer of rich, home-made compost has been applied to the soil surface too, so maybe the nutrients from this are helping it aswell, who knows (I sure hope it is!).

Said cactus:

[mescalito]

Note,that the tall one in the pot is the PUP!

Pupping from the base.

[Monk]

About 6-7 yrs ago, someone did an experiment with a T. pach and some l-tyrosine. This was during an extremely immature and heavy toking phase so please excuse the cactus mutilation and lack of certain recorded details The cactus was grown for 1.5 yrs on a window sill and allowed to dry out to the sucked in 'thirsty' stage. L-tyrosine powder (around 100 mg prolly) was mixed into a suspension and sucked into a few ml syringe (don't ask.) This was injected at multiple points along the ridge with the syringe left in a few minutes to allow the soln to sink in and not squirt back out (it will happen.) This was done, I seem to recall, weekly or bi weekly for some months. After a total of two yrs growth in his posession, some crazy bastard (SCB) decided it was Petey's time. He was lopped to about 1" above the soil, despined, dried, powdered, weighed (26 or 28 g.-can't remember) and stuffed into 97 large gel caps. The experience was the most intense SCB had or has had from cacti, lasting 18 hrs. Time was spent in a foreign, underwater world where nothing was solid, but swayed in the current and sea creature people drifted about everywhere. The morphings of objects were not small and detailed like sid, but massive and complex, involving whole buildings/hills etc shifting positions, dimensions and perspective. 'Twas beautiful and precipitated some life changes for the better soon after.

[gamma.goblin]

And I doubt that I would actually produce significantly more mescaline, there is a reason the cactus isnt producing that much and unless it is an enzyme is saturated and your able to bypass it then equilibrium will take hold.

Are you still of this opinion Teo? Have you tried it? It would seem thast those who have done it have had positive results. Hopefully with your cactus guide others will be in a position to experiement on large batches of plants in the coming years ;)

As for the hippy plant relationship thing, theres many things a hippy shouldnt do, much worse than stressing a cactus. If people are that worried about plants then starve yourselves to death Its simply simulated enviromental stress. People didnt discover these things growing in secure, pristine greenhouses...Though if the realtionship with the plant is part of your experience, then it will effect the psychology of your trip. Personally, I dont care if my hallucinogen comes from the ground or a lab, its the quality of visions that are important(and lack of unpleasant side effects). Not everyone has the space for lots of cacti, so I dont see anything wrong with wanting to increase the alkaloid yeilds of these very slow growing plants. Their life cycle would have to be the biggest reason there is so little known. MJ naturally has a 1 yr life cycle, which can be cut to about 3 months. Shrooms can be done in weeks. These cacti take years for a handfull of doses from an entire plant! This is the main reason I feel people are so protective of them. My Lophs are valuable to me simply for this reason, they are naturally grown and have taken a long time to get to their current state. However, they are never for cutting up, so I couldnt give a crap about their alkaloid content.

When chemical doping, l-dopa is used in admixture with tyramine. L-tyrosine is by far the cheapest(and most accessible) choice, costing about 1/5 of dopa/tyramine, and 1/10 dopamine. Also, try obtaining dopamine powder to make a saturated solution! Any Ive seen is injectable.

If only I had somewhere I could raise a crop

[Monk]

gamma, I do agree that stress is a valid cultivation technique, but these days I'm more apt to draw the line a little sooner for myself and my plants. Your argument that we should all starve if we don't wanna harm other living things is one of my favorites. I often describe to vegetarians how they ruthlessly pull carrot plants out, chop off their feet, throw away their heads, and boil them to death! Just because they don't have eyes and fur doesn't mean they don't have feelings-you bigots! Haha, but back to business. I agree with your statements in the other thread that there needs to be a clonal control group in the same conditions etc., but the experiment was done willy-nilly by an excited, mad scientist in his youth. He has considered doing it in a little more controlled manner with cutting raised plants side by side with all things equal except for the doping. He's just more of an earthy dude these days (ironically due to such plant based experiences) and hasn't gotten around to it. The process does have merit, though, as demonstrated by the extreme results from something less than an oz. of dried material from a Home Depot sourced cactus. The total alk for that experience was much stronger than what 500 mg has been described to be like, so let's just say between 750 and 1000 for argument. That would mean that the dried powder was between 2.6% (28g @ 750mg) and 3.8% (26g @ 1000mg) That's nearly unheard of in the literature, and quite high by any psychonauts standards. Now, all this is inference, not fact, but it presses the idea of the efficacy of the process. Maybe some others out there have done similar experiments or are willing to do so.

Oh, and per your questions for teo, I too disagree with the assumption that "if it could produce more, it would." Other situations, such as substrate doping in fungi and amino acid neurotransmitter precursor supplementation in humans, demonstrate that nature is often chemically malleable by supplementation of precursors.

[gamma.goblin]

heh I appreciate the conditions under which you performed your experiment, as it stands, its the best account we have - Gottlieb didnt include a bioassay! It would be a lot of work for whoever decides to take up the test, hence why Im trying to gently prod Teo into action, as he already has the growing side sorted ;) For a newbie it could mean several crops of learning before the actual experiments are carried out.

[nitrogen]

Not sure if fast growth = lower alkaloids at all - isn't that "Eileen" plant a very vigorous one? And many lophs have less alkaloid content than Trichocereous...

* Not sure if older growth is necessarily more potent either - I wouldn't eat a seedling but once the plant is established I don't know if it's any less potent than an old one... I have a couple very bitter young plants in my collection, and some blander old ones (and vise versa)...

Wouldn't the alkaloids be produced just like the rest of the growth, at basically the same rate?

And if alkaloids are there to protect the plant against predators (which is the leading theory no), then wouldn't they be produced in the highed relative concentration when the plant was young, since at that time it would be much more vulnerable to being eaten?

I definately agree about not stressing the plant - why would stress = more alkaloids anyway? Do the alkaloids help the plant deal with stress or or something? I don't see the reasoning there...