Do we want and/or need religion?

[gomaos]

You sound like a religious Pauline hanson.

Hopefully in the future, if someone asks someone else "What is religion?"

The answer will be:

"Religion? That garbage got abolished in the 21st century along with right-wing-politics and Capitalism. Today everybody is allowed to think what they want to. Your mind is free!"

But I think I'm being to optimistic here...

Edited December 8, 2006 by gomaos

[Guest Warrioe-Sage]

Remember that true Religion has never existed.

A federation of religions can develop without destroying the personal approach to divinity, but, rather, enhancing it.

People considering themselves Christians at once may protest, with the usual separative partisanship which they beleive to be loyalty, that Christianity is the faith and Christ is the Saviour, and nothing else should be considered.

They forget that true Christianity has yet to be practised, and no one therefor had the chance to appreciate its value or its beauty. If once a sufficiently large community were to live truly as Christians they might be able to draw every other faith under their banner purely through the wonderful results of their living.

But until Christians are Christians they really have no right to talk of Christianity - it does not exist !

Christ and His Teachings exist, but Christianity as He desired it is yet to come.

True Christianity is on the way. The Church will break out of the shackles of the old era, in which she ruled by fear of consequences, and made doctrines a rather depressing, morbid, solemn and punfunctory programme.

Spiritul life will be a thing of joy, indulged in for its own sake, bringing Heaven now instead of saving Hell herafter.

This will entail very great changes in the outlook on spiritual matters. They wil fuse with all other interest of life.

Spirit will be regared as beauty and meaning in life.

It will be understood that matter is just crystallised spirit and the spirit is transmutted matter, and the approach to interplay will be ardently sought

[komodo]

A federation of religions can develop without destroying the personal approach to divinity, but, rather, enhancing it.

how does an externally structured federation of religions (bearing symbols/interpretations) make divinity more internally personal? and who runs this federation?

If once a sufficiently large community were to live truly as Christians they might be able to draw every other faith under their banner purely through the wonderful results of their living.

this doesnt seem grounded in the real world. many excellent philosophies of the spirit have arisen and fallen and there has never been a mass peaceful conversion of all religions under 'one banner'. people arent like that.

True Christianity is on the way.

you just said it has never existed, what evidence is there that it is on the way?

the basic problem i have with that post is its absolutism. "this is how the world is, should and will be". you're proposing a religious utopia based on nothing but an assertion of wildly optimistic facts and your own values.

the world is far too complicated and troubled for this kind of pie-in-the-sky new age tribe to spontaneously emerge and make everyone fall into line with the (unknown) teachings of baby cheeses.

Edited December 9, 2006 by komodo

[wandjina]

lmao...sorry, I couldn't resist.

[gomaos]

actually, warrioe-sage, I think I understand you better now.

You look at Christianity the same way I look at communism:

A great Idea, but because of human faults and human misery, it has never really existed.

Which is true for both christianity and communism.

Great ideas... but too great to put into practice because for most humans life is too hard and/or difficult.

Who's to blame?

I think the leaders!!!

Those humans who cannot help themselves but try and force their ideas onto others, and then when the others, who make up 90 per cent of humanity, have swallowed the bait, those predator-humans exploit them in any way possible.

it's the predators who are to blame.

get rid of them I say!

any way possible

no need to name names we all know who I'm talking about.

Oh well here's some of the names:

Bush Blair Howard and their counterparts in other countries.

If I was god(which is of course impossible), i wouldn't kill them but just put them in another dimension, say a B-earth, where they can annoy and fight each other and leave the rest of us alone.

[komodo]

thing is, it's the people who prop up the predators. flocks of sheep feed the shepherds. politics and religion are similar systems, both channel energy from a group of lower echelon operators to a group of higher echelon operators. the rules are usually set up by the higher operators to ensure the system is self perpetuating and well defended, but it's the foolish sheep that give them the energy to manifest these structures, that ask for it.

[gomaos]

but why are the sheep -the people- so foolish and misguided?

Because of the media which are run by the predators.

Brainwashing via media has become a fine art and most people do not realise they are conditioned and re-conditioned and brainwashed (and whichever other word you may want to use) as soon as they switch on the idiot box and watch the news etc. Or read the paper. Or listen to the radio. or go to work, where their conception of politics has to be in line with other workmates. The concepts are mostly dictated by the employers.

And most employers are faschists, not all, but most.

They are faschist because being a faschist ensures the continuing flow of money in a faschist world.

It's rather depressing when you get down to the bottom of it all.

Personally I don't have much hope for a better world.

On the contrary, things are getting worse all the time.

The way everything is going, the club of the pigs who are more equal than the rest of us, wants to turn the rest of world into a copy of china: Slavery. Work day and night and get nothing for it but the most needed essentials and useless technical toys.

thing is, it's the people who prop up the predators. flocks of sheep feed the shepherds. politics and religion are similar systems, both channel energy from a group of lower echelon operators to a group of higher echelon operators. the rules are usually set up by the higher operators to ensure the system is self perpetuating and well defended, but it's the foolish sheep that give them the energy to manifest these structures, that ask for it.

[sobriquet]

Which is true for both christianity and communism.

Great ideas... but too great to put into practice because for most humans life is too hard and/or difficult.

Who's to blame?

I think the leaders!!!

Those humans who cannot help themselves but try and force their ideas onto others, and then when the others, who make up 90 per cent of humanity, have swallowed the bait, those predator-humans exploit them in any way possible.

Gomaos I understand what you are saying but really if you think about it, if you were given a chance to lead then you would do the same and force your system upon everyone else since you know in your heart you can't have everyone believing in Marxism.

The only true and natural system is anarcho-capitalism. I don't believe in the role of government in anything except to enforce the rights of people to their human rights, property, privacy and dignity. They should ensure that these things are protected and stay out of everything else.

Everyone should have the responsibility to look after themselves and needs. Grow and produce what they need and trade and buy from others what they don't.

Fascism, communism, and any system with great control over people's lives and freedoms is a flawed system.

[gomaos]

you would do the same and force your system upon everyone else since you know in your heart you can't have everyone believing in Marxism

no i wouldn't. I don't even believe in Marxism myself. For example, I had the che guevara avatar largely to remind people that is is possible to revolt against authorities, and absolutely necessary.

Marxism has had it's turn and failed. Basically I don't follow any "Isms". If I was running a country, yes I would be for the poor rather than the rich, which could be called "leftist", I'd be for worker's rights rather than employers rights, because the employers with all their money have so many privileges, they don't need any more rights, and should donate any excess (say over a million dollars) to the poor, or rather, the country should disown them.

Really, why does any human being need to own more than a million bucks? it should be illegal. just like methamphetamine use is illegal. Why? Because it is that's why.

Everyone should have the responsibility to look after themselves and needs. Grow and produce what they need and trade and buy from others what they don't.

Fascism, communism, and any system with great control over people's lives and freedoms is a flawed system.

Totally agree. But why is it the opposite here in Australia at the moment?

Because of the arsehole Howard governments and the super-rich who fund and run it.

To hell with Howard!

Edited December 16, 2006 by gomaos

[sobriquet]

Really, why does any human being need to own more than a million bucks? it should be illegal. just like methamphetamine use is illegal. Why? Because it is that's why.

But that is also a restriction on people and that is not what is wanted.

I think really that people don't understand what money is. Money is something far more subtle than what it appears and without a deeper understanding of it people get trapped in falsehood like what you have written above, or they get trapped in situations which make them have a lotto mentality that money appears out of nowhere without being earned.

May I suggest that anyone who wants to understand money a bit more deeply might read or listen to the short excerpt here:

http://compuball.com/Inquisition/AynRand/danconiaspeech.htm

[The Dude]

Okay I'd just like to re-iterate our collective definition of religion as it appears to have been.. compiled by us forum members here.

We've now broadened it from the purely metaphysical/divine/spirital realm and into the socio-political realms of human behaviour.. that being the political ideologies or 'isms' all being a 'belief system' or a political religion of sorts.

erm.. I guess the argument has in fact swayed off topic into what should be generalised as 'control mechanims' or 'belief systems'. Control via inprinting a belief system, be it religious, social or political, I guess as advocates of free-thinking we all abhor any kind of institutionalised thinking.

To clarify.. I'd suggest that a religion can exist without followers... That is if a book is created as a 'Holy Book' with divinely inspired instructions on how to live ones life or what have you, then there is the religion there.. I'd say that religion exists independent of the religious heirachy that is part of it. I think somebody else has articulated this better than I in a previous post but.. Religious Institutions are not the Religion itself and the faults of the organisation shouldn't necessarily be blamed on Religion. (ie: Catholicism is fucked, but Jesus was way cool)

as I have discovered that we are indeed one self-perpetuating.. existence that that is constantly re-evalutaing itself, re-experiencing itself.. there are no absolutes just what is relative to all individuals.. that Is to say.. how the fuck to articulate this concept in my mind? fuuuck...

Everything and everyone influnces one another. You cannot abolish religion without filling the void, or having somebody else do it for you.. What if you could conquer the world and get rid of this bastard religion bullshit, you'd replace it with ANY other ideology and people will follow and automatically revert to their position as followers...

Religion is not the fault of evil people that are fooling all the stupid masses.. It's an - as of now - natural tendency for the masses to be stupid and prone to follow orders from fear of making any decisions themselves and the minority to be those who act of their own free-will. The theocratic elite exploited this aspect of human thinking.. it did not create it.. and it cannot destroy it. Religion will continue to exist because yes people need it.

Not so much us forum members.. but I wont be that Naive (or arrogant) to think I am a-religious. Christianity and social conditioning were the first architects of my religion. Then as I got interested in other shit I'd modify this construction... All my new experiences are shaped by all my past experiences.. likewise each new experience shapes my brain another way and alters whatever i'd experience after that, the point is our IDEAS of right and wrong.. or logical/illogical or real/unreal are but a constantly shifting point on a piece of string (with no limits) That is to say even if you have faith in the religion of science, what we seem to know now is that even recorded data is subjective and not absolute.. so What is real? Nothing but everything. Anything else is bullshit.

That's what I was getting at.. the new religion would be a fusion of every belief system, the different ideas/concepts/stories would be discussed and philosophised about and through re-evaluating our own concepts of reality and such our human experience will continue to push forward. It would be a religion unified by connections and similarities and not divided by squabbles over cultural/political differences.

-Thats the idea anyway.

[Guest onemind]

Skimmed everything after the flogging part, i dont see what is funny about me being good at flogging, lets face it, all you internet gurus are

All i can say is that i have smoked large doses of dmt and life is still a massive mystery. When the ego disappears and matter dematerializes into an abyss, all this primate rambling just looks pathetic. Words of a monkey are useless and religions are gay.

And thats all i have to say about that..

[reptyle]

matter dematerialises?... maybe into "words"...words that maybe built the monkey to continue saying the words that build the monkey...that build the words to make the DMT to build the words that make the monkey that turned the words into time and kneeded them into them s.elves that tuned into the monkeys words.

"all this primate rambling just look..." "words of a monk...are...religions" "...re :)gay"

[gomaos]

matter dematerialises?... maybe into "words"...words that maybe built the monkey to continue saying the words that build the monkey...that build the words to make the DMT to build the words that make the monkey that turned the words into time and kneeded them into them s.elves that tuned into the monkeys words.

"all this primate rambling just look..." "words of a monk...are...religions" "...re :)gay

trippy

[gomaos]

I think really that people don't understand what money is. Money is something far more subtle than what it appears and without a deeper understanding of it people get trapped in falsehood like what you have written above,

oh i do understand the importance, the "subtelety" of money;

'money makes the world go round'

because of money, or the absence of it, little kids in Africa and similar countries have to starve to death, probably while they watch fat white tourists eating in luxury restaurants,

it's only because of money that wars are fought and millions of people die in pain and torture;

it's only because of money that the world is run by assholes like Howard, blair, bush etc.

it's only because of money that Howard ever got into power,

because in 1996 Labor had 51% of the vote, but because Australia is not really a democracy,

since there are Kings and Queens in Australia:

People who don't just own 1000 times as much money as the rest of us,

but also 1000 or a million times as much land as the rest of us, and hold 1000 times the vote then the rest of us;

Damn assholes. They should get money down their throat until they suffocate.

Yes I do understand the subleties of money.

it is only because of these assholes who voted for Howard in 1996 and whose votes count 1000 times as much as yours and mine, that fuckwits are running this country and want to "stamp us out" like Hitler stamped out the jews in Germany, they are now busting everone and trying to "reprogram" them (as if they were machines. Haven't they learned from those idiot caesars in history? The more you try to stamp something out, the bigger it will get.

Look at christianity; it had nothing to offer, except words.

Still people died for their beliefs.

The drug movement has cool drugs to offer, way more than christianity.

It will rise up and swallow those who try to stamp it out. Even if it's gonna take a while.

Hopefully still during my lifetime. But it will happen.

.

Do you want to read more?

I think not.

But I got more... heaps more...

[komodo]

the new religion would be a fusion of every belief system

I've said many times here that religions are established systems, which you are denying, but then this statement above actually confirms that definition, in that a "new religion" will form, a fusion of systems into a new system (for the record I think this is baseless optimism, even if just an idea).

Religion only has identity, and can be called this-religion or that-religion, based on it's systemic arrangements; icons, priestly rites, prayers, rituals etc. What you think or feel and your religion can be quite seperate. Religion is a group, religions have rules, if you're a Hindu you follow Hindu rules, if you're a Muslim, if you're an Anglican etc.

I think attempting to shift the debate to say "religion is whatever you believe in" actually makes it pointless. Religions are huge, real forces in the world that set out rules for lifestyles and morality for billions of people, attempting to deny this fact doesnt make it magically go away. When we talk about religions I think we should talk about religions, not individual spiritual idealism.

But that is also a restriction on people and that is not what is wanted.

Says you Restrictions on people are certainly wanted. You think we can just let kids grow up without restrictions? What kind of selfish aggressive chimps do you want roaming this planet? There are many nasty inherited elements in the human genome, violent egotistical impulses left over from savage physical survival of the fittest. These things need to be restricted out of existence for the benefit of the future we are the precursors of. It is unkind to let selfish greedy individuals do unto other beings however they please, when you have the power to prevent it. Your anarcho-capitalism still draws a control line (murder? rape? genocide?) it's just a question of where. You'd like the wealthy few to have more power to abuse the disadvantaged many, and the earth? I'd like them to have much, much less, and I think the much much less camp is the only possible healthy and just future for our species and our planet. This power will not be surrendered by these montrous egos, it must be taken from them by force (ie. restricted).

Edited December 19, 2006 by komodo

[The Dude]

I don't know, to me using the old-school definition of religion is limiting. You could even say that religions are being phased out, that they're old and quaint? So all the smart thinkers tend to think in "Real-Life" belief systems, those being scientific or socio-political ideologies, humanism, socialism, communism, capitalism etc.. Darwinism

Seeing as these were being discussed I assumed we're now expanding our definition of religion.. But I guess not, really our discussion isn't All about religion then, but belief systems in general. Any kind of doctrine that leads your life. Consumerism is our largest ..belief system now, It is what creates our desires and supplies our rewards. It is the system that steers our lives, what once was religion is now a new belief system...

Also I know my "Nu-Religion" model is overly optimistic but that is the idea. Really I cannot see our human evolution going any other way but enlightenment.. it is inevitable for an experience continually re-experiencing itself, learning and growing, from learning about itself. As humanity gradually wakes up to its' universal, connected nature, there'll be no stopping the fusion of beliefs and it will be a diverse fusion. That's what it's about

... Hmm I dunno what I mean to be honest here. But really from what I gather about most religions and philosophies is that they try to describe our nature, as humans, or our minds, and also our context in the known universe, and not only show us who and where we are but also to suggest where we should be going. They do this via symbols and parables, and the symbology is infinitely diverse but at the heart of it, the message is the same. why not share our ideas about these everyday matters of life and death, if harmony is an aspiration of us all.

Edited December 20, 2006 by El Duderino

[komodo]

i agree with a lot of what youre saying dude, where im being a bit pedantic is that religions are particular kind of belief system, one which causes tribalism and conflict, and is therefore something we can do without in the 21st century. something we can shed, like gills:

You could even say that religions are being phased out, that they're old and quaint? So all the smart thinkers tend to think in "Real-Life" belief systems

and when you say what once was religion is now a new belief system. i agree, however i think that materialism is not a religion but the result of replacement of religion with a new means of assessment 'science'.

the symbology is infinitely diverse but at the heart of it, the message is the same.

but the devil is in the details, and currently the big religions are very hardnosed about their details.

[Guest Warrioe-Sage]

Human beings are indeed in a very sorry state compared with what they might and should be. This due to the fact that for so long a period man has sacrificed him self utterly to the conquest of the exterior physical matter .

He has concentrated upon the outer shell, the least powerful of the dimensions. there fore he is about 1 to ? as powerful as he should be. Glance at the tired, dul, misshapen faces of a city crowd a this will come home vividly to us.

So the battle con continues between those who cling angrily to all that belong to the dying period, and those who are ready to loose their hold on dead and crystallised ideas and gain a grander birthright in their place.

Time rushes by. The old civilization is burning itself up in a cresendo of confusion. But, even before its ashes are formed, The Phoenix can be seen arising, emerging as the new revolting youth of today, in every land - an unprecedented event - universal revolt, seeking, however instinctively, for the will of creation / God

If to these new crusaders everywhere could introduced the Plan of Evolution as it has emerged from all the great teachings, they might find an anchor and a purpose by means of which they could lead the world into a new era of both sanity and fulfillment.

" be ye wise as serpents and harmless as doves!"

Reminder of the instruction from Christ.

We have to realise that we are living at a tremendous moment in history, when a great era which has lasted thousands of years is dying, and a mysterious new era is coming to birth. What a time to be alive ! We are caught and torn by both death throes and birth throes, in which vital forces are involved, that tear at our very heart-strings.

The still greater and more wonderful era will produce an utterly new consciousness in humanity, so different as to be hardly understandable, the consciouysness of fusion with all things, so that little personal individuality seems no longer important or desirable, and man can truly say, 'I am all !'

Edited December 22, 2006 by Warrioe-Sage

[Μορφέας]

ahhh ws, if such a era came to life it would be amazing and wonderful, that evoked powerful feelings

sigh.....