Do we want and/or need religion?

[gomaos]

To me, just about all religions are nothing but a bunch of mostly evil lies, used by authorities and dictatoric minds, to brainwash citizens and make their life miserable.

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/opinio...rd-dawkins.html

To me, there is nothing good about religion.

Wars are fought over imaginary friends, and millions, if not billions of people have died for absurd reasons.

Look at medieval times:

Witches and related "professions" were hunted down, tortured and murdered.

Nobody in their right mind can possibly say that this was reasonable.

Today, drug-users are the witches.

The only true reason for drug-prohibition is, that drug-use, other than the permitted alcohol, which is allowed through the Bible, conflicts with the Western/Christian way of life...

Authorities claim that drug-use is prohibited to protect people's health.

This is a great, big lie. Most drugs, if used properly, are harmless or even beneficial to your health.

In the case of cannabis, for example, a herb with great healing properties, and in many cases the only substance which will relieve suffering of many diseases, is officially prohibited and users are jailed, or otherwise punished.

Especially in the case of cannabis, it can be said, that the authorities rather let people die painfully and slowly, instead of allowing them the medicine that would make their life so much more bearable.

In my eyes, this prohibition of cannabis is a hilarious crime committed by governments around the globe.

And why? Not for health reasons, but because some70 years ago or so, some psychopathic american megalomaniacs decided that it was "the weed from hell" (idiotic!) and had every country ban it, if necessary, they enforced it.

For example, in Nepal, where Cannabis has been a part of the culture for thousands of years, when i visited in the 1970s, the USA had some fighter planes parked there to enforce drug prohibition. Those bastards!

My problem is, I get to emotional, so I better stop now.

Please vote whether you want religion, or not.

[Auxin]

prohibition of cannabis is a hilarious crime committed by governments around the globe.

And why? Not for health reasons, but because some70 years ago or so, some psychopathic american megalomaniacs decided that it was "the weed from hell" (idiotic!)

That was just the propoganda. Just prior to its banning synthetic fibers had finally been worked out and mass production had just started- then a patent went through to automate the processing of hemp resulting in a product of better quality than the synthetics. The chemical companies owned politicians and wanted to make money- thus the "devil weed" was born.

Politicians are motivated by money, not morality.

[gomaos]

True I totally agree.

That morality was just fake to confuse the public.

Still is.

[MORG]

If you answered no to the above question you may be interested in checking out this movement/group.

The Brights

If you answered yes you might be interested in seeing an alternative point of view.

[Fenris]

Apparently "Religion" or spirituality is hardwired into the brain. I think it resides somewhere in the temporal lobes.

I don't know what the evolutionary advantages would be unless it is a process to keep alive old knowledge in the form of structured dogma.

I think the problems arise with religion when it is organised. Any hierarchy is going to have internal politics and corruption and use its power for selfish reasons regardless of the good intentions.

Don't forget that in the distant past knowledge of sacramental drugs was a guarded secret held by the priests and royalty who didn't want the common peon having access to the divine within.

Its all about control

[Hagakure]

yeah how religious/superstitious you are is genetically determined.

i think they have done lots of twin studies on the matter.

if you destroy christianity, islam etc over night those poeople will just jump onto the next supersticion. simple as that. you can see it in australia with a resurgence of spiritual guiders, mystics and the like to fill void previously held by church.

im not a very religious person but i do like philosophy and debating and thinking about it etc.

others though need religion as a safety blanket etc.

everyone has different needs from religion.

the best way to handle the matter is not to simply destroy but to create a better religion that will help achieve social harmony.

i have been thinking about what type of form this would have to take or a while.

right now i am procrastinating so will pick up this thread again later perhaps.

[Guest onemind]

It depends on the religion. Most people on this thread are just focussing on mono theistic religions.

Some religions are non dogmatic and offer quality practices that improve peoples lives and possibly lead to insight into the ultimate nature of reality. At the very least, religion scares otherwise retarded sociopaths from commiting murder, rape, theft ect ect out of fear of hell. That alone makes it worthwhile.

If society can ever become truly secular with all humans capable of taking responsibility for their actions then we wont need religion. Until then, a few lies and delusions are a decent framework for an otherwise hellish existence amongst deluded mammals with an in built killer instinct.

Edited October 13, 2006 by onemind

[Guest onemind]

And after just reading this topic, it seems most are bitter about the effect of religion branding drug users as sinners. That is only one small aspect of it, humans are wild animals without a moral framework, see lord of the flies ect.

Not all people are as with it as the guys on this forum so religion is more of a babysitter for the less enlightened which does more good than harm in my opinion. A few holy wars just adds spice to this boring grind of an existence

[ramon]

Wars are fought over imaginary friends, and millions, if not billions of people have died for absurd reasons.

Wars are fought over property and resources and they are sometimes justified with religion.

Surely you don't have a problem with the concept of democracy and yet that has recently been used to justify a war. Don't think the war had much to do with installing democracy but it was a convenient way to justify it , just as religion has been in the past.

Anyway my vote assumed that spirituality was interchangable with religion, if not then I would have to change my vote

[MORG]

Apparently "Religion" or spirituality is hardwired into the brain.

I think that's bollocks.

Why am I not religious in the slightest?

If it was "hardwired" I'd feel it unless I'm a rare mutant.

I think it's a purely social phenomenon.

[Guest onemind]

Are you guys for real?

Science is inconclusive so not being religious requires as much faith as being religious. None of you know the answers no matter how much dmt you've smoked

[foolsbreath]

Are you guys for real?

Science is inconclusive so not being religious requires as much faith as being religious. None of you know the answers no matter how much dmt you've smoked

I think you are talking about theories of evolution

Science has found millions of conclusive answers to millions of proposed hypothetical and actual questions. If science itself in inconclusive why the hell do people study it at university, is it somehow a blind fluke that hundreds of pharmaceuticals are produced using science? no!

What science does do is explain our presence a hell of a lot better than the bible which is a glorified fictional best seller. All writting is based on some truth which gives it credence.

I am sure that if we could go back to the time when we are missing explanations for our existance and eye witness those crutial steps we would have valid and conclusive proof which explain our missing evolutionary steps and are 100% scientifically based.

If you look back in time, religion was simply used to explain the unknown. With the advent of science, the list of unknowns is quite conclusively becoming shorter. It is only a matter of time before the list will be completely crossed of all togethor.

Now, who in this thread actually alluded to science providing all the aswers apart from me (playing the devils advocate). It is entirely possible to hate religion and not believe in something else or nothing all togethor. The fact is religion has brought war, pestilence, and hatred to this world (do I need to give examples?), woah hold on, if that be true religion be the devil (according to the bible) and who or what would that make God?

personally I live by the same rules as provided by wicken without actually believing in magic per se. They are a good set of rules upon which one can build a happy existence and get along with their fellows and nature. All the superstition seen in ancient wicken traditions is again a product of a lack of viable explanations for experiences had in those times

With Knowledge comes understanding

[Guest onemind]

If science itself in inconclusive why the hell do people study it at university

People study science at university because it is incomplete. Many scientists say we know just enough to know how much we dont know. I agree that our knowledge of the universe has helped us control the matter around us but it still gives no answers to the big questions, certainly not enough to base a moral lifestyle. If science was complete and the universe was just a big cosmic machine that happened by pure fluke, there would be no reason to play by any rules. If it was complete there wouldn't be so many people doing PHDs, because what would there be to research? This isn't coming from a religious nut either, i'm doing a bachelor of science myself but i'm not foolish enough to think any university in australia teaches ultimate reality for $20k.

What science does do is explain our presence a hell of a lot better than the bible

No arguments there. The bible is not religion, its just one small aspect of it so it would be foolish to equate the word religion with christianity.

It is only a matter of time before the list will be completely crossed of all togethor.

Not necessarily. String theory is untestable, our apparatus may be forever incapable of studying the universe down to smaller sizes. If the universe is a creation of mind then emperical science can only go so far and we will need other methods to probe existence.

It is entirely possible to hate religion and not believe in something else or nothing all togethor

Belief in something else is still religion. And not believing in anything requires faith when you dont know. Its all religion

The fact is religion has brought war, pestilence, and hatred to this world

Not true, deluded men, greed and politicians have brought war, if any of them practiced what they preach the world would be a better place.

With Knowledge comes understanding

Yes, and until then, all humans are in the dark and regardless of what we believe or not believe, our actions are based on that and that is religion.

Edited October 14, 2006 by onemind

[Hagakure]

I think that's bollocks.

Why am I not religious in the slightest?

If it was "hardwired" I'd feel it unless I'm a rare mutant.

I think it's a purely social phenomenon.

your not a rare mutant. you are just less religious.

they have performed twin studies.

if one twin was religious in one setting, the other twin was generally also religious in their setting.

likewise, nonreligious twins werent religious no matter where they were.

fenris wasnt saying that religion is hardwired into YOUR brain. what he is saying is that whether you are religious or non-religious, it is due to some hardwiring (though your environment will also play a very large part in how it all manifests).

and onemind "Science is inconclusive so not being religious requires as much faith as being religious."

completely disagree. its one thing to base world view on what you know, its another to base your world view on what you dont know. will come back to this.

Edited October 14, 2006 by Hagakure

[Guest onemind]

Of course, its best just to admit your ignorance and keep an open mind and test things out for yourself rather than claiming your scientific knowledge and drug experiences have given you enough insight to make blanket staements that all religions are evil, genetic memes that are the cause of all suffering.

[foolsbreath]

People study science at university because it is incomplete. Many scientists say we know just enough to know how much we dont know. I agree that our knowledge of the universe has helped us control the matter around us but it still gives no answers to the big questions, certainly not enough to base a moral lifestyle. If science was complete and the universe was just a big cosmic machine that happened by pure fluke, there would be no reason to play by any rules. If it was complete there wouldn't be so many people doing PHDs, because what would there be to research? This isn't coming from a religious nut either, i'm doing a bachelor of science myself but i'm not foolish enough to think any university in australia teaches ultimate reality for $20k.

At what point did I say University teaches ultimate reality? I did indeed allude that knowledge is forever being gained which means we will always be finding answers to both new and old questions and greater understanding to be had by all. I have completed two degrees in scientific disciplines and realise I can hardly begin to understand the working dynamics of the universe with the little understanding I have, but knowledge is collective.

No arguments there. The bible is not religion, its just one small aspect of it so it would be foolish to equate the word religion with christianity.

The bible is religion, it is a book of religion, and since no religious person believes in more than their religion, to them it is the be all and end all of their religion for Christians, just as the kuran is to the Islams

Not necessarily. String theory is untestable, our apparatus may be forever incapable of studying the universe down to smaller sizes. If the universe is a creation of mind then emperical science can only go so far and we will need other methods to probe existence.

I am not talking about any string theories, all I amsaying is that we are answering questions that used to be unanswered and therefore answered by religion. I also don't believe that the universe is a creation of the mind. If you do, then you abviously have faith in something I do not

Belief in something else is still religion. And not believing in anything requires faith when you dont know. Its all religion

Religion is by definition from the oxford dictionary "the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods. 2 a particular system of faith and worship. 3 a pursuit or interest followed with devotion" Therefor a simple belief in something without worship or devotion is not a religion and certainly a belief in nothing does not befit a religion at all.

Faith is by definition from the oxford dictionary "1 complete trust or confidence. 2 strong belief in a religion. 3 a system of religious belief." Belief in nothing does not require any much trust or confidence, just that what is, is. This does not take a major stretch of the imagination for most people

QUOTE

The fact is religion has brought war, pestilence, and hatred to this world

Not true, deluded men, greed and politicians have brought war, if any of them practiced what they preach the world would be a better place.

Have you read the Kuran? This may be true for modern times, but these wars are still centered around religion and the people of one religion hate people of another because of their religios beliefs, not the beliefs of their politicians or out of greed

QUOTE

With Knowledge comes understanding

Yes, and until then, all humans are in the dark and regardless of what we believe or not believe, our actions are based on that and that is religion.

Understanding does not happen overnight, it is an ongoing process. What is "that" that our actions are based on? it is certainly not religion for me unless religion involves going out working hard and earning money to keep food on the table. My actions are based on reward outweighing cost, not wether some deity approves of my actions made in blind faith.

[Guest onemind]

Well, i think most of what you just said is just semantics and different interpretations of the definition of religion. I am buddhist, there is no good and evil, heaven and hell, creator god ect in buddhism. However, it is still considdered a religion by some and according to your definition, it is not a religion.

As for you saying the bible is religion, again, that is not true. I am buddhist but dont believe the bible, just because some would consider me religious doesn't mean i have anything to do with jesus, mohammed or anyone else from fantasy middle east.

Belief in nothing does not require any much trust or confidence,

Of course it does, it requires faith and belief that there is no god and death is the end and there are no higher moral systems to worry about. You either know or you dont, if you dont then any belief or non belief is faith. However, the buddhist method is to not believe in anything, but at the same time accept we dont know so we dont go around claiming to know like some here.

Have you read the Kuran?

Yes, i realize they think i'm an infidel and they need to kill and torture the non believers, but again, the kuran is not religion. It is one part of religion so it would be better to say SOME religions are evil deluded memes and are a quirk of evolution and other religions are easier to investigate. To quote einstein:

"The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. It should transcend personal God and avoid dogma and theology. Covering both the natural and the spiritual, it should be based on a religious sense arising from the experience of all things natural and spiritual as a meaningful unity. Buddhism answers this description. If there is any religion that could cope with modern scientific needs it would be Buddhism."

Atheism is a religion Unless of course you really do know for certain which i seriously doubt.

[foolsbreath]

Aaah, now I like where this is going!

I believe that Bhuddism is a way of life not a religion, just as I base my way of life on the wicken beliefs but not religion.

Both indicate a system of doctrines that they can be widely agreed apon and understood to mean simply the law of life

As for you saying the bible is religion, again, that is not true. I am buddhist but dont believe the bible, just because some would consider me religious doesn't mean i have anything to do with jesus, mohammed or anyone else from fantasy middle east.

I said the bible is the religion to christians, as the quran is religion to Islam. Neither religion would hold any belief in the others teaching and this is my point, and what you also agree to.

The religion of the future will be enlightenment which comes from understanding. I call it a religion only in terms that it will gather followers and believers like present day religions, but will be based purely on knowledge instead of belief and faith, dispelling uncertainty and allowing man to evolve to the next level!

[Guest onemind]

Well it looks like we have the same kind of outlook but differ on the definition of religion. I agree that buddhism is a way of life and not a system of beliefs that requires worship or blind faith. However, the census and politicians clasify buddhism and wicca as a religions so i guess its just comes down to labels rather than views.

If buddhism is not considered a religion in this post then i change my vote to no, we dont need religion

Edited October 14, 2006 by onemind

[foolsbreath]

I agree!

That was fun though

EDIT : funny how a different perception of a definition can cause a different view of opinions, when the endpoint is the same.

Edited October 14, 2006 by foolsbreath

[parzival]

Religion is a perfectly necessary belief system in my view, it is often not the fault of religion for 'religious violence' but it is the fault of the short-sighted fuckwits who call themselves members. At the heart of EVERY religion, the essence, is love. CHRISTIANS DO NOT DESERVE A RELIGION LIKE CHRISTIANITY. I see god as an undeniable truth, but not one we can grasp. Logically, creation implies a creator. But is our concept of god wrong? I think it absurd that god the omnipotent should have a gender or disposition. God is everything.

Personally i think all religions are correct. Belief is the foundation of your reality.

[mescalito]

As I've said before IMO "Religion is the stagnation of the truth"

It's all about the search,the journey...not the destination.In this day and age we are realising that quick fixes don't work and the archeaic revival is just around the corner.

We live dynamically yet some choose to adopt a static viewpoint which shits me to tears esp. the door-knockers...at age 7 I was asked if I would accept Jesus as my saviour, to which I replied "I'll get back to you on that" so there is some sort of hard wiring going on no doubt.At an early age I knew the difference and wasn't ready to commit to something I knew nothing about!

This is specifically why I study shamanism as it is not a religion but a set of practices towards understanding purpose and meaning....there are NO promises when entering psychonautical space only results as opposed to following monkey see-monkey-do that religions lend themselves to and consequentially attempt to instill in their offspring.

It's nearing time to evolve OUT of dogma of any style as style sets rules and therefore limitation.

[-YT-]

"its one thing to base world view on what you know, its another to base your world view on what you dont know"

Well Said Hag, the thing that naws at me with science is the lack of detached objectivity toward novel observations and or experiences which will always contain the bias opinion of one collecting the data, everyone has their own intent coupled with scientific data creating a theory/concept geared towards explaining an event or action in a certain way.. usually toward the bias of the person doing the research and or investigation.. that said is a fairly broad statement i must admit...

"As I've said before IMO "Religion is the stagnation of the truth"

"It's all about the search,the journey...not the destination.In this day and age we are realising that quick fixes don't work and the archeaic revival is just around the corner."

Totally agree with that mescalito . I think Religion can be one of two things... a stepping stone to ones realisation of the abstract and how far gone religion has stepped away from it.. and the rigid confines of perception into which such beliefs entail... so much limitations as mesc stated

I was kinda in the same boat as mescalito being bought up christian and excepting jesus in my heart... which to tell the truth never filled me with anything just more questions and a fear of goin to hell heh heh.. I never could mesh the idea of nature/plants being the work of the devil/evil.. The old ways - Traditional ways are slowly coming back to us re - shamanisms, druidry etc the revival of the old connecting link with the other/abstract. Direct experience no middle man needed

[gomaos]

Apparently "Religion" or spirituality is hardwired into the brain

I'd like to make a big, huge difference between spirituality and religion.

Spirituality is the natural thing, comes from within oneslef (true spirituality that is) and could be called "hardwired" but I reject the expression. It's more the love that we store in our hearts...

Religion, in contrast, is mostly based on words, and in most countries, is "hammered" into the brain, not hardwired. There are many countries on earth where it's simply impossible not to have religion. You "have to" believe in god, whichever name it may go under...

At the very least, religion scares otherwise retarded sociopaths from commiting murder, rape, theft ect ect out of fear of hell. That alone makes it worthwhile.

I don't really believe that. Religion also gives badies excuses for torture and murder...

deluded mammals with an in built killer instinct.

I don't think most of us are like that... there's only a few nut cases, but because they do so much damage and evil, they can't be overlooked... I still believe that humans, if they haven't been conditioned to be evil (sadly, mostly they are) are naturally good and peaceful.

It's mostly greed for money and power that makes them do evil things, money and power being just delusions of grandeur... it is true that they do not make happy.

humans are wild animals without a moral framework, see lord of the flies ect.

I reject that. The reason that there is so much evil in the world is that those few who are truely evil, will go over dead bodies and worse to reach their goal, simple people are jealous of their riches and want to be like them. Yet they cannot because they are not truely evil. They are simply being used by the "dark lords" (who must be destroyed if humans are ever to find lasting happiness and peace.)

Anyway my vote assumed that spirituality was interchangable with religion, if not then I would have to change my vote

I think there is a huge difference.

It is entirely possible to hate religion and not believe in something else or nothing all togethor

totally agree

personally I live by the same rules as provided by wicken without actually believing in magic per se

same here.... I believe that any intelligent adult human being would know how to treat your fellow human beings and environment, without having to be indoktrinated by crappy old books. We know what is the right thing to do... if we don't do it it's because we want to achieve something more than we would normally have...

"Religion is the stagnation of the truth"

True for most religions because they say: You must believe this book, these teachings, whatever, this is the dogma, is the absolute truth and must not be doubted...

which is totalt crap, stagnation, rubbish....

There is no absolute truth, no dogma for anything that's true, the universe changes continuously, and there are as many "truths" as there are people.

Religions is just one way to brainwash many people into the beliefs and ideas of one person (the prophet, maniac, nutso whatever) It is the way that aothorities can tell you what to do even when you are in bed late at night, what sex, if any, is allowed, and how you have to do it etc etc.... maybe not be true anymore for most of us, but look around you...

It's nearing time to evolve OUT of dogma of any style as style sets rules and therefore limitation

YOH!!!

A few more words...

I've never read the Kuran the Bible or anything...

when I was a little boy they made us study the bible (roman catholic) I hated the violent cynical priest and most of the content of the bible...

I cannot deny however that I had some christian visions about the life of jesus...

I think if he existed at all (which science doubts) he was a revolutionary fighting the super-evil roman emprire. I pull my hat to all good revolutionaries (good revolutionary=does not kill people!) If Jesus could see those idotic Bush-Christians from today, he would turn in his grave (yes of course he's[or his bones] in a grave!)

[Guest onemind]

I don't think most of us are like that... there's only a few nut cases..........I reject that. The reason that there is so much evil in the world is that those few who are truely evil

Dont you think you're being a little naive? For a start, i dont believe in "evil", just ignorance.

Did you see the story on 60 minutes a few weeks ago about the girl that was severely neglected by her parents and was left outside and brought up by dogs? She crawled around on all fours and barked, panted and pretty much behavved like a dog. Or the experiments some psychiatrists did a few decades ago about the babies that were brought up along side monkies? Or lord of the flies which points out that kids left to their own devices without being exposed to thousands of years of culture by adults decayed into savages? Or Isaac Newton that stated who only saw what he saw by standing on the shoulders of giants. I could go in but you get the idea

The bottom line is, you would be surprised how you would have turned out if you weren't "brainwashed" by the adult populations education and legal systems that is based largely on christian or other religious values.

Human beings evolved rom a rather primative state and every single one of us still have those insticts that have been conditioned and controlled by moral society.

If you were born on a desert island and grew up alone, you would not be able to speak, have very limited understanding of mathematics and would have no use of technology, possibly not even learn how to use fire, certainly not invent the wheel on your own and pretty much be a wild mammal like the rest of the animals on that island.

The statement that all adults would grow up to be "good" ect is naive, and the statement that there are just naturally "evil" people among us agin is naive.

There is no evil, just ignorance.