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Torsten

7 years jail for owning a book on making drugs

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You raise an interesting and troubling point, Stonehenge, but I'd argue there's a pretty big difference between the criminalization of possessing drug manufacturing literature and child porn. Both are rationalized on the basis of enabling acts that are illegal, but I see a world of difference between laws against substance use--- a victimless crime--- and an underground industry that is inherently exploitative of children. I suppose it could be argued by proponents of the War on Some Drugs that the drug trade is exploitative of some, but I'd argue in turn that it's the artificially-illicit nature of the drug trade in which people can be considered exploited. However, even if child porn was legal as church on Sunday, it still would mean that children are being cruelly and disgustingly used. In other words, I don't think it's just "disgust" that drives laws against child porn.

Hell, if someone owns a lot of pornographic literature about children, I'll think he or she's a sick fuck not fit for civil society, but I don't think that should be a reason to throw them in jail. But if they own media that shows a real, living child being violated, I can't in good conscience argue that it's totalitarian repression on the part of the state that throws that sick fuck in jail.

Of course, I think the root problem here is that the people that make laws ultimately don't seem to see much of a difference between drug use by consenting adults and child porn.

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The rule of thumb generally is (for example in the US constitution which is a fine literary and political work imo, shame nobody follows it these days) freedom of speech means you can say whatever you want as long as you aren't violating anyone elses fundamental human rights.

I think this is obviously the best approach, especially comparing like Stonehenge said, the anti Holocaust denial laws in Germany.

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Well, I have a nice set of steak knives at home. They are used only for cutting steak and other meats, but I guess that The Man could take them out of context and say that they were going to be used to stalk and hunt people, then gutting them while the victims watch themselves die. No different to reading a book... I guess? What a stupid law. I guess its about as 'up there' as banning plants and fungi... When will we take them down from the inside and turn this Nazi world into a peaceful and much better place? Or is that illegal too? What a stupid, stupid world....

Better throw them knives out, just in case... :unsure:

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With the internet banning books is futile. :lol:

This site is completley free. Do a keyword search for many interesting chemistry/horticulture books. Maybe it is legal to read online?

http://www.scribd.com/

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Maybe it is legal to read online?

http://www.scribd.com/

Downloading is enough proof of possession, so theoretically there is no difference to owning the hardcopy. In practical terms though no one is likely to go through your downloads for the last 5 years unless they were already watching you.

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Last night on SBS melbourne thay had a show on the history of the Catholic Inquisition which started in the early 1300s.

They made reference to a book printed in the 1500s Drafted by Pope Paul 4 that was called the "Index of prohibited books" and was NOT REPEALED until 1966!!!!

Anybody who was found to be in possession of a book named in the index was guilty of heresy and sentenced to DEATH by Burning up until the early 1700s

So I would suggest that Hitler followed the Catholic Churches lead and wrote his own list to control the minds of the people, our mob of bastards are simply no better that is all, we live not in a democracy but a bureaucratic tyranny.

Over the centuries the nature of the despot has not changed, If we were to follow the Bibles suggestion to "Cut evil off from amongst you" we would definitely have to start with the pollies would we not?

These laws actually breach International Convention on Civil and Political Rights to which Australia is a signatory!!

Article 19

1. Everyone shall have the right to hold opinions without interference.

2. Everyone shall have the right to freedom of expression; this right shall include freedom to seek,

receive and impart information and ideas of all kinds, regardless of frontiers, either orally, in writing

or in print, in the form of art, or through any other media of his choice.

3. The exercise of the rights provided for in paragraph 2 of this article carries with it special duties

and responsibilities. It may therefore be subject to certain restrictions, but these shall only be such

as are provided by law and are necessary:

(a) For respect of the rights or reputations of others;

(B) For the protection of national security or of public order (ordre public), or of public

health or morals.

Although they would probably try to justify it under 3b, would be an interesting argument, but kind of hollow if we roll the drug laws in the HCA :wacko:

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Bloke at the Hydro shop in Nowra told me ( and this was 2003 ) that books on cultivation of weed/coca etc and manufacture of Balmain-Bugs are illegal

imports... I asked expressly about "The Cultivator's handbook" & he said "good luck". He said there was still 1 joint he knew of which would still get new stock & that was in ACT.

He had a winge about "Little Johnny" fuckin' the country up etc :lol:

I think he said that the books already here are ok but it's a criminal offense to import 'em. I can't attest to the validity of this though...

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A friend of mine had no trouble getting PIHKAL sent in from overseas. Another friend recently purchased a copy of TIHKAL from a vendor in Melbourne, too. Doesn't seem to be a law they're concentrating on, but the fact that such a law even made it into print is bollocks to the max.

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I think he said that the books already here are ok but it's a criminal offense to import 'em. I can't attest to the validity of this though...

No, books that are classified as RC [refused classification] are illegal to import, sell or possess.

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Hi Torsten! Is there a list with the books that are classified as RC? bye Eg

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You Aussies make me sick... why have you not stormed the capital and burned down whatever fucking building y'all use for government???

:slap:

This is unacceptable!

REVOLUTION!!!

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You Aussies make me sick... why have you not stormed the capital and burned down whatever fucking building y'all use for government???

This is unacceptable!

REVOLUTION!!!

And when will you be doing that in the US hey Teotz? Dont throw stones in glass houses... :rolleyes:

Fact of the matter is that, should I feel inclined, I could walk 10 mins down town and purchase TIHKAL, PIHKAL, half a dozen pot cultivation books and whatever else is in stock, and that is all COMPLETELY over the counter. There may be a law prohibiting it, but there certainly isnt anything stopping people here atm. Why I would want to form a protest about something that has no effect right now and effectively bring my name into the spotlight supporting something so taboo?

Edit: Why haven't we burned down government buildings here? Umm, perhaps because that would land us in gaol for some ridiculous amount of time, it would endanger and possibly destroy the lives of other people who are effectively doing their job and it would have ABSOLUTELY no effect whatsoever in regard to changing unjust laws. There are ways to go about changing laws like this, terrorism is not one of them.

Edited by Ace

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Our government pays us not to kick up a shit (centrelink). We take their dough & play their game.

Doesn't mean we do what they say, we still do whatever we want behind closed doors. It's basically hush money...

Edited by the germinator

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At least books aren't illegal in the U.S.!!!

U.S. citizens don't stand for crap like that (tho we do stand for a lot of bullshit we shouldn't!)

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Do you stand for Khat being illegal?

Anyone know about the legalities of ridgy-didge chem journals? Lot o' them have precise procedures for making Speed/X/Heroine/Coke... Better recipes than 'Uncle Fester' and the like.

In fact every drug (and preparation thereof) known to man is contained in Chem journals... I guess this means no more chem students eh?

Edited by the germinator

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Teotz, I was mostly pointing out how arrogant and hypocritical your post was. I was going to leave it at the first line of my response (mostly to vent), but that wouldnt have indicated why nothing gets done to avoid this. The american people 'stand for' a whole heap of unjust laws, just like every country on earth. In fact, americans take a lot more rubbish (law-wise) than many other countries, so that, combined with your constant whispering of 'revolution' with no one hearing, shows nothing but hypocracy.

Yep, you're right, there are illegal books here according to a law that no one I've ever spoken to has known, until I learned via this forum (which I appreciate - Torsten's knowledge of these things is invaluable). But if you really want to talk f-cked laws, lets analyse US jail populations, US gun laws and US drug laws eh? Whats a petty, rarely enforced book law in comparison to any of those? And that's not even touching base on socially f-cked things like blatant racism (KKK for eg), patriotism, religion, war involvement and a whole host of others.

Anyway, I've steered this far enough off course so I dont plan on continuing this bitchfest. My apologies to the OP - this doesnt belong in the bitches section, it should remain in Legal Matters for the future benefit of others learning of this law.

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Teo, don't start in. We have enough ridiculous things in the states to worry about that we don't need to worry about things elsewhere. When you fight the feds with clubs when they raid pot dispensaries in cali on obama's orders, then people will listen to you. You haven't earned your chops yet.

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I agree with Teotz

Aussies often don't stand up for what they believe in at *any* cost to themselves or others, and are therefore easily pushed into putting up with whatever BS the government decides to put upon them.

I was in "Noah's Arc" in Lismore the other day talking to one of the owners about this very issue... about how there was no longer a "psychedelic" book section... and she said they just couldn't get the books in anymore. And then she said how regulated they were, but in this very accepting way, like it was okay! oh, that's just the way it is! I got quite worked up about and really put energy out there into the noosphere about this!

It's just an attitude and complacency that shits me...

She also said there was a book about how to make your suicide pill, which is also banned! They can't get! (nice people who spent some time explaining all this to me btw)

The thing is, that in the case of psychedelics, this is information that is actually helping people in terms of harm minimisation, all that. To prevent the paper information, is not changing anything, people go on the internet. Its just fascist daddy explaining his moralistic view of the world and how thinks the world should be (or should be not) and that's very basic censorship, of some very rewarding and interesting titles which in and of themselves do not represent "law breaking"... this has been going on for a long time, I remember when "e for ecstasy" was seized many years ago.

This complacent laziness to the governments beurocratic BS, is a really shameful thing about this country, Australian people don't tend to see or want to see.

Julian.

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She also said there was a book about how to make your suicide pill, which is also banned! They can't get!

the peaceful pill handbook by nitschke?

a colleague of mine got that in from overseas partially because it was banned in australia and they don't believe in censorship. they said it was an interesting read, but quite creepy as well.

i think if you buy books from amazon they're less likely to get seized?

Edited by faustus

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FYI, 'The Peaceful Pill Handbook' by Nitschke and Stewart is/was available via torrent. A very interesting read and quite saddening/depressing. But nevertheless it should be available to those who require it, or those who have an interest in it.

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if everyone on this forum were to share their collection of ebooks.... we'd have nearly everything.

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I agree with Teotz

Thank you. The day a book becomes illegal in the U.S. I will be the first one to march on the White House with pitchforks and a torch! I don't care what you say about the states at least we can legally grow TOBACCO and own any fucking BOOK we want!!!

BTW, Salvia and Kratom are also legal for me :)

I love you Aussies but I fucking hate your government (do something about that will ya?)

Can't you guys see that this is a serious Nazi move? Restricting knowledge and truth so they can make up any bullshit and you will believe it! This is some true backwards ass oppressive middle age bullshit. Now go set something on fire!

And ANOTHER THING.... you may say the U.S. sucks but we (now at least) let our Native Americans use Peyote and people can also use Ayahuasca for religious reasons (the Ayahuasca users are not Native to the U.S., which means something). Hell they even let White people take Peyote for religious use in AZ and a couple other states!

Do the Kangaroos wear swastikas down there?

(BTW, I know I'm pissing some of you off, I hate the U.S. too, don't worry, just try to relax)

Edited by Teotz'

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"I will be the first one to march on the White House with pitchforks and a torch!"

see how far that gets you.

this is an international community let's respect the different problems each nation faces and not make childish comments about it. if you've got any productive means of protest to share with us teotz then by all means..

edit for edit: large percentages of australians don't watch fox news and believe in the concept of "freeing the shit out of people" with bombs. we don't have the most powerful nuclear arsenal in the world and we havent been involved in conflicts non stop for the last 50 years. we have problems, you have problems, what you don't have is the solution so drop it please.

Edited by ThunderIdeal

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see how far that gets you.

Not very far... but I'll do it!

Please understand that I hate all governments equally, including the U.S. government.

I was in "Noah's Arc" in Lismore the other day talking to one of the owners about this very issue... about how there was no longer a "psychedelic" book section... and she said they just couldn't get the books in anymore. And then she said how regulated they were, but in this very accepting way, like it was okay! oh, that's just the way it is! I got quite worked up about and really put energy out there into the noosphere about this!

THEY ARE TRYING TO KEEP YOU IN THE DARK SO THEY CAN TELL YOU LIIIIIIIES!!!!

Edited by Teotz'

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