The Case Against DMT Elves

[mutant]

woof>

SD>

Am talking 20x xtract hit of course

>

I can assure you a tiny bit x5 does it for some people, me included.

Yep I agree it is the closest feeling to death, even though SD goes too fucking fast. So actually I think SD pull and complete disso can be more terrifying than death itself due to speed of transition.

botanika>>

Dogs though are fairly unique in that much of that behaviour has been bred or evolved alongside humans. Dogs can display all kinds of intelligence and communication between them and humans but they dont really go and use that between each other. A dog may indeed have feelings of love for its owner - but does it have similar feelings for other dogs? What do domesticated dogs dream about and what to do grey wolves dream about? An even wilder question would be 'do domesticated dogs believe in god?'. Dogs have had such a profound (if not critical) relationship with humans it would be fascinating to study their subconscious perception.

No, I actually meant the whole canine family and had wolves in my mind, in particular. So I am definately talking about wild behaviour, where the pack shows affection/love even to the omega wolf [the last in the hierarchy]. But ype I agree on everything else you say. 'Love' is about bonding [brothers/sisters work together so they survive] , mothers bring up their cubs, the pack staying together etc etc. Still there really are some stuff in nature that remind us of love.

kaye>

Yes, i also think that fear is a very strong element of life.

It's not that i don't like that fact, just that i am not a fan of having to endure huge amounts of the emotion itself, especially if it is unnecessary, unhealthy and unwise to do so.

you got a choice only if you're gonna see a thriller. man doesn't really expose to hardcore fear for the kicks. Real life fear is not pleasant and it's normal you wouldn't like feeling it - at all.

Implying that fear itself has any power to make us do anything is a bit odd to me.

didn't say that, didn't say can make us do anything, I mentioned 4 random examples

I believe, as with any other emotion which arises in our experience, that we always have a choice to make before any action is taken.

it's convinient to like to think all life proceedure are like that : Perception, Emotional response, Choice, Action

but it's pretty much more spontaneous than that - especially with emotions.

If you are happy to say that fear 'made you stay in a shitty relationship for years' , would you also be happy to say that anger made you smash your girlfriend in the face?

fear of lonliness, unsettlement, fear of inconvinience, fear of change is what I meant with fear making you stay in a shitty relationship. Your other example is absurd as it doesn't have anything to do with fear, but with an act I am sure we both disagree with. being happy with it has nothing to do with saying it. Just an observation.

How convenient, to be at the whim of your emotions and thereby have no responsibility for what are very definitely your own actions.Sorry if that was a bit off the deep end, but fear doesn't make me do anything. IMO.

The order is something like - Perception, Emotional response, Choice, Action.

Like I said, emotions do not obey the rules of rational thought, usually. Therefore, I seem to be right about the fact you seem to partly admit emotions rule us up to a degree but just don't like it.

I don't see how i have accepted that fear has some kind of power over us. ?

I'm quoting you:

Yes, i also think that fear is a very strong element of life.

so, in what way does fear has power over us? Hmmm I argue big enough to keep stupid ideas like monotheistic religions alive and going.

You don't think fear can rule a nation? what about 9/11 and the war on terrorism and the rest of US bullshit?

[mutant]

let's go to your example

Perception = demons, Emotional response = fear, Choice = any number of options, Action = depends on choice.

say more. talk about individual in question and then about a specific event. make this a real example, y'know?

In this situation, choosing to remain fearful is detrimental and appears to lock us in, but it is a choice none-the-less.

that's where you got it wrong, and it's probably you are not talking some real example. Noone decides to remain fearful, it just happens when one cannot overcome the situations and/or emotions that led to the fear in the first place. In any case, we're going nowhere if we discussing fear in general, outside some specific example.

mutant:

Impersonal physiocratic cynicism can blow up most idealists arguements with solid facts in my logic, natural history, anthropology and then some.

kaye

What are you talking about there?

dictionary: physiocracy = nature rulez , more or less

I am talking about the easiness a sceptic and cynic can blow away any idealism. Idealists='believers' in this discussion. And they idealists because they maintain a position out of what they want to be true, not trying to objectively figure out what is really going on. And fear also plays a role here too. It's because of fear idealists dismiss the sceptics arguements. The fear of death, god and what if there's no god after all.

[on comparing dreams and trips]

The analogy is in the perception of what appears to be external beings, that's all.

I argue its the same people who see external elves/spirits in both dreams and trips, perceive them as such and even go on to believe they are external even if they wake up/ sober up.

Well, if you have ever had a dream where you thought you were awake, then you can understand why.

I thought we were talking about high dose psychedelics and elves, but anyways. yep dreams can be very real. dissociation can be real, even more real than a dream - but when you sober up or wake up you know it was I dream or trip. Lucid dreamers do exactly this: navigate through their dreams, just because they worked on their ability to be able to recognise they're sleeping while dreaming, so they can dictate their dreams.

In any case, there's nothing strange here, only certain people who perceive strangeness.

AFAIK, our perception of our external waking world is head generated, And you'd only be using your head if you were trying to say otherwise. Take your head off, and the entire universe disappears for all you know. Off your head man.

yep, the perception. you're argueing again, watch out

but the perception is more or less according with outside reality and in this discussion is where we discuss some exceptions like when dreaming, taking a powerful hallucinogenic drug, where reality is not so according with perception. Like botanika said, these stuff work so well because they're so convincing.

The question was concerning percieved evil beings that proceed to attack you somewhat relentlessly.

fear is surely one factor

[mutant]

but on my behalf, i have admittedly taken way myself way beyond the intended dosage range of psychs at times, without any trip sitter and including negative set and settings. That left me susceptible to my experiences.

I could never in a million years have concieved of the 'beings' that i have met. Whether i was open to the possibility before hand, i can't say that i know for sure either way.

those trips doesn't sound credible or anything even more so since you mention negative set & settings. IMO, trip reports are useless for serious work unless you know they reporters background and such.

I do not care for scientific 'proof' that can be measured and calculated using 'real external world' instruments. I care about the actual experience. If i can go into the same experience and alter my response to it, perhaps i will then be able to alter my perception of it too and realise what is 'really' happening.

now you're talking mate. the experience of you feeling these things is real, that's for sure. what you make out of it, is also your buziness.

just philosophically exploring the importance/function or these states in different situations.

mutant:

Do we rule out of our research the obviously mentally distorted, or note the weird-proneness as in doing a case study... or we accept their reports of the supernatural like a proper report? Does mental illness exist? does it inter-relate to these phenomena?

Good questions. I think there are inter-reltions, but i can't really comment. IMO they should ideally be taken into account, but AFAIK we don't know enough about conditions such as schizophrenia to make anything out to be black and white.

nothing black or white here man. just indicators

we know enough to state some forms of bi-polar , psychosis and schizophrenia related illnesses do not go well with classic psychedelics, or any stimulant/psychedelic drug for that matter, including cannabis.

we know enough to argue that some states of people's minds on hallucinogens are somewhat identical with states of psychotic states.

and we could also argue that prolongued usage/abuse can lure people into messiah complex state of minds, with the examples of Lilly, McKenna and Leary

and we also know that genuinely psychotic people or people in temporary such states do not realise their brain chamicals are misfiring

I was wondering; is the fear of death also a fear of life?

not quite

'fear' of death is one of the leading powers of life

Interesting also, is that people who have had very close brushes with death are often the ones most happy to be alive and living life fully

people who ceased fearing death or never really feared death [rare, I happen to be like that as I am atheist from very young age] are like that really. Also people who have experience NDE [near death experiences] also experience greater appreciation of life. Dying can be experienced in a ceremony too. Drug induced.

note not all atheists are scareless of death, and it takes some time for a 40 y.o. that shifted to atheism overcome some fears. Living without god, as I have done from a young age has you accepting mortality much easier cause there is not other option really.

...

oof that was a lot . end of rant

[The Dude]

...lets imagine that intstead of talking about encountering elves while on DMT, we're talking about scary monsters in our dreams.

We might know that they're not real in this world, but when we are dreaming we tend to be totally convinced that the world we are in is real. If we are lucky enough to catch ourselves out, we can clearly see that we are dreaming and that we can stop being scared and dissolve that monster because we are the creators of our dream world, whether we are conscious of it or otherwise, and why would we consciously choose to create such unpleasant things?

Eventually (assuming we haven't died), we wake up in the everyday world, back in our body. We go about our business. We believe everything in our world to be an unquestioned reality, because everyone agrees that it is so. Then we go and eat a trip. Suddenly, our trusty, solid reality becomes fluid and dreamlike.

The fact that we can be dreaming and not doubt for a second our reality, not even realise we were dreaming until we awaken, causes issues. If our minds can deceive us so massively, it would seem entirely possible that we could have also been deceived during our entire waking lives. Tripping hard can make us see that the physical world is just another kind of dream.

It can also send us into other worldly dimensions which are neither sleep dreaming nor wake dreaming. We have experiences there which are just as real as experiences anywhere else.

I guess i'm ranting a bit, but the point should be clear. You imply that elves are not real and suggest to get back to what is real? But we don't know what is real. The only information we have about our waking reality; has been collected by the senses and presented back to the senses. But the senses themselves are a part of it all, and can never be on the outside looking in.

If sleeping, dreaming life is there to teach us, i think the message is this:

We are co-creators of our entire reality in waking life, but we are mostly unaware of the connection. We are not seperate from our environment, but we are it and it is us. Our minds and thoughts shape our world, but with the gift of some kind of time for the energy to condense into the material.

Anyway, sorry for the ranting. These ideas are not really put out there to change anyones point to view, just to help me understand more fully my own views.

 

The question on the "reality" of these beings seems to need proof of their independent existence "out there". What if "out there" is the lie. Who's gonna prove it to you.. someone out there? I guess we're all very convincing actors playing the role that I'm not you and you aren't me. The make believe fantasy of separation cuz being the one and only one can become lonely, my greatest fear.

Edited January 5, 2011 by The Dude

[kayesem]

K:

quick response for now. there's at least one interesting nang thread here. i don't want to get into it but while i kind of agree with your 'neutral trippyness' statement, i also agree with others that there is some kind of link with other times, or maybe even other timelines. don't know if it's worth continuing trying to *grasp* at it. interestingly the particular sound i get these days has a close cousin in a little part of a song that i made years ago, most likely a preset.

no, the sound was more like a tiny squeaky wheel being pushed along very fast, but with a really fictional feel about it and i'm not sure if it's right to just call it a sound. i think i only moved a small amount, but that doesn't need to be the explanation for not seeing in there. doesn't robert monroe among others say that it often takes people a few visits to get their senses about them? is that the monroe you're referring to? there is some kind of 'astral projection society' in brisbane that is open to anyone, they use his old guide book/s as far as i know.

 

Yeh cool. I'll do a search for nang threads. And yeh, now that you mention it, i did hear a track outdoors recently that had part of the sound really nailed. It wasn't complete, but they did an amazing job of replicating a lot of the general lower freq underlying stuff. Not sure if i would have recognized it had i not heard it a few times already that day on my own accord.

Interesting. And yeh, i think you're right about Monroe and others mentioning that it takes a while to adjust and have some kind of functional senses about you in the astral planes. Cheers for the heads up about Brisbane. I am in Melbs but it's a good idea to see if there is anything similar around that is local hey. I am quite keen on using the audio as a tool to start with though. I know you can get there with natural techniques and practice, but seeing reports that it can take months and still have no results is a little off putting. On the other hand, perhaps i could be ok at getting results. When i tried setting intentions for dream recall and lucidity i got results within 2 or 3 days and with admittedly very little effort on my part.

[kayesem]

The question on the "reality" of these beings seems to need proof of their independent existence "out there". What if "out there" is the lie. Who's gonna prove it to you.. someone out there? I guess we're all very convincing actors playing the role that I'm not you and you aren't me. The make believe fantasy of separation cuz being the one and only one can become lonely, my greatest fear.

 

Yeh, great point dude. It had been my ultimate belief for many years that all is essentially one, and that 'out there' is an illusion as you say. I just happened to have an experience that made me question that and ask - "What if i got it wrong and i accidentally put myself in danger?"

I don't think i got it wrong, i just think that i was overwhelmed by my experience and needed answers. I can only interpret what happened and not say for sure. It just seemed as if i had entered either an inner space or an outer one, and encountered evil beings. The horror of what i percieved as their intent and actions were so far beyond words it's not funny.

Anyways, i think that the illusion of seperation goes far beyond the need not to be lonely, but i guess i see your point there too.

[kayesem]

Hey Mutant. Yeh fully, it's the first time i've ever been told that i have exceeded my quote quota for a post, lol.

didn't say that, didn't say can make us do anything, I mentioned 4 random examples

 

I'm sorry, i think you have misunderstood. I wasn't saying that you said that fear can make us do any thing in the whole world of things to do.

I was saying that instead of fear being able to "make us" do some things as you suggested, it is my view that there is nothing that any emotion (including fear) can make us do. In other words; there is no emotion that can make us do anything.

There is no thing that we are forced to do, directly by the emotion itself, whether by fear or love or whatever. Not some thing, and not any thing, at all.

it's convinient to like to think all life proceedure are like that : Perception, Emotional response, Choice, Action

but it's pretty much more spontaneous than that - especially with emotions.

 

I would suggest that on the surface, it certainly may appear to be that way, but only in the instances where we are unaware that we have even made a choice. In such situations i think that the choice is just a subconscious one, and might be referred to as second nature or spontaneity.

fear of lonliness, unsettlement, fear of inconvinience, fear of change is what I meant with fear making you stay in a shitty relationship. Your other example is absurd as it doesn't have anything to do with fear, but with an act I am sure we both disagree with. being happy with it has nothing to do with saying it. Just an observation.

 

Yeh ok. I can see what you were saying. A fear of change (and other things) for example can 'make us' stay in a relationship, even an unhealthy one that we would be doing well to leave.

I was just making the point that it is not the fear in it's own right that has made the choice for us. One person might be feeling fear (and other things) and decide not to leave an abusive partner for years. Another person might feel the same fear, but decide to simply acknowledge it and leave the relationship regardless.

My other example of anger might be absurd, but it has to do with the exact same thing. Whether we feel fear, anger, grief or joy etc. They are all emotions. Emotion can be defined as "a psychological state that arises spontaneously rather than through conscious effort and is sometimes accompanied by physiological changes; a feeling."

I certainly don't agree with violence against others. You said that fear can make us do things, and fear is an emotion and can make us do certain things, so it follows that any other emotion must have a similar power over us, no?

For a different example - I was in a fit of rage once, and punched a hole in a window. It was not the windows fault, it's just a window. It was not the the 'rage's fault, because it is only an emotion. The emotion may have arisen spontaneously and had a strong feeling to it, but it was still my choice; what to do and how to give it some kind of expression. Better that i punched the window and only cut myself than i punched my girlfriend though, right? Just because it all happened so fast, that is no excuse for me to deny my responsiblity to myself and others when dealing with my own emotions.

If i said that my "rage made me do it", that would be passing the buck.

It is a fair enough observation, but not so simple and it can have dramatic implications if the factor of personal choice is left out.

Like I said, emotions do not obey the rules of rational thought, usually. Therefore, I seem to be right about the fact you seem to partly admit emotions rule us up to a degree but just don't like it.

 

Yeh, agreed, because they are not thoughts at all, they are psychological states and feelings. The strong ones seem to take us over and cloud our thoughts and whatever rationality we may have had. I don't admit that they rule us. They are just currents of energy. These currents can be very powerful and sweep us away, but that is only if we allow them to.

If we recognize the energy and the direction it's taking us, as it arises, we can choose to run with it or not. We can 'bottle' our anger and store it for later, releasing it in a productive and/or non-harmful way.

Just because someone might not be aware of the process, doesn't mean that their emotions have a true power to rule them. It just means that the person has not yet learned how to deal with their emotions effectively and may occasionally get swept away so to speak. The ball is always in our court, it is our decision on how to play with it. IMO.

I'm quoting you:

Touche : )

so, in what way does fear has power over us? Hmmm I argue big enough to keep stupid ideas like monotheistic religions alive and going.

You don't think fear can rule a nation? what about 9/11 and the war on terrorism and the rest of US bullshit?

 

Good call. But some of those stupid ideas are worth a shitload of money. I guess they might still be stupid nontheless. Such religions are alive because of the people who continue to promote them, and also because of the people who choose to subscribe to the doctrine.

Those 2 things seem to be similar, in that they both create a 'problem' which promotes fear, and then provide a 'solution', which merely serves the interests of the people who made up the whole deal.

Resist the devil and choose god. Resist the "terrorists" and choose "freedom." Do the "right" thing and unite, with a common enemy, and rid the world of what is "wrong".

We can perceive people who can tell us lies (perception) in an effort to generate fear (emotional response).

I'm sorry, but i still don't see how the emotional response holds any power over us.

I am not saying that the majority of people are not ignorant and will not 'follow the crowd' like a herd of sheep.

I am saying that we have choices and we are responsible for our actions and decisions.

[kayesem]

those trips doesn't sound credible or anything even more so since you mention negative set & settings. IMO, trip reports are useless for serious work unless you know they reporters background and such.

 

We're not doing any serious work here. We are discussing common subjective experiences. Whether a trip report is credible or not doesn't matter. The trip happened and the person descibed events that were real for them at the time, in their experience.

now you're talking mate. the experience of you feeling these things is real, that's for sure. what you make out of it, is also your buziness.

just philosophically exploring the importance/function or these states in different situations.

 

Yep.

nothing black or white here man. just indicators

we know enough to state some forms of bi-polar , psychosis and schizophrenia related illnesses do not go well with classic psychedelics, or any stimulant/psychedelic drug for that matter, including cannabis.

we know enough to argue that some states of people's minds on hallucinogens are somewhat identical with states of psychotic states.

and we could also argue that prolongued usage/abuse can lure people into messiah complex state of minds, with the examples of Lilly, McKenna and Leary

and we also know that genuinely psychotic people or people in temporary such states do not realise their brain chamicals are misfiring

 

Yeh, i see. Also many parallels with people's psychedelic experiences and people who meditate regularly.

Living without god, as I have done from a young age has you accepting mortality much easier cause there is not other option really.

That all would depend on how you define god. And also, how you define yourself. But yes, the body will die and that's hard to accept in western culture, generally.

[woof woof woof]

I agree with everything Mutant said!

Perception is everything! Perception is the only thing we really have.

I would like to add the following.

Beings are absulutely real. All beings are simply a formless type of energy, in the form of a frequency band.(including ourselves when you start to lose all form - by seeing yourself more as abstract) The problem is that we as humans have a strong tendency to personify things. Therefore we call the beings 'elves, gnomes, trolls etc'. Because that the only thing it kind of makes us thing off.

Taking a hallucinogenic substance will only change your perspective on reality (if you understand what's going on at least, people that dont let their fantacy take over too much and start seeing all kinds of crazy shit) This perspective change opens people up to all kinds of frequency bands. Simply put,..DMT is a differnt point of view then Mescalin and so on with all the other mind altering stuff. Drugs allow a person a temporary immersment in a specific frequency band, opening a person up to that world with it's energy blobs(or beings,frequencies, or whatever else you want to call it)that are relating to that band.

People can learn to dominate these energy bands and gain unique perspective on the world allowing them to do things that seem magical. The problem is that you need to go into their world completly and come back (trough meditation/drugs/WILLPOWER. You have to be strong minded(knowing what you are doing) and diciplined to go in and get back out. (some people dont return completely. they get lost iow. Probably happens more frequently with drugs) = drug induced psychosis modern psychiatry would lable it.) When you have returned and have therefore looped yourself through or bound yourself with this new energy or frequency band you can learn to see the entire world from that perspective and learn to act behind the scences of the reality that most normal people perceive and therefore live a magically beautiful life. hahaha.

I didnt know all this when I experimented with mind altering substances. gradually I learned. I learend what I could do with this knowledge. You will have to lead a very strong life in order to keep it in your life, if you want to learn to do seemingly magical things.

Diciplined meditation, to clear up your intuition. And learn to live outside of the people, that are trying to pin down your persception to the way everybody sees it.

whooooo I got kinda offtrack agaaain hahahaha

Edited January 6, 2011 by woof woof woof

[woof woof woof]

btw. Monotheism is alligned with how I see the world. The purest cleanest love vibration is holy/sacred. Well worth our time to feeling that vibe in your life! Doenst mean there isnt any in between. The inbetween is usually only worth a glance at best.

[folias]

Kayesem,

That sounds like a great opportunity that your dad is offering to pay for you to the Monroe Institute! I would do it for sure! What's your dad's money for an opportunity like that? (except if that is 6 months worth of savings for him working scrubbing toilets, which sounds unlikely!)

Robert Monroe's book "Far Jouneys" was the book that really set me off on some kind of a spiritual path.

My mother and also my grandfather traveled out of body! Both are very pragmatic people, and have everthing to lose by telling people about their experiences which they take for granted.

A friend said to recently, in dozens of people he had given DMT to, only about 10-15% saw beings and of them, there was no doubt that the beings were as they appeared to be and what they said they were!

I just read this from Martin Ball.

http://www.realitysandwich.com/energy_ego_and_entheogens

He says beings and all this phenomena are projections of the ego!

None of this is news to me. It is called Advaita (which means not two)

I know dozens of people who see reality in this way, and I can see reality in this way too - but it is a choice to perceive reality like this and I feel it is ultimately disingenuos and boring and doesn't really go anywhere.

Julian.

[woof woof woof]

Julian,... why do you say it's boring? It's easy to say that it is just a projection of the self. To really be on top of it all, means that we've had to UN-fight your way out of the reality we have been made to think is real.

And allong the way on the inward path you will eventually attract situations of past karma..... very interesting to see how it all fits together.

[kayesem]

Kayesem,

That sounds like a great opportunity that your dad is offering to pay for you to the Monroe Institute! I would do it for sure! What's your dad's money for an opportunity like that? (except if that is 6 months worth of savings for him working scrubbing toilets, which sounds unlikely!)

Yeh, it's amazingly kind of him and i would sure love to do it too. He is self imployed and his business has been doing quite well recently. The offer was a while ago now though, so not sure if it still stands as a few things have changed since then, but i am catching up with him soonish and will perhaps mention the CD idea because that is something that he could use too. TBH, i have a generally low self esteem and do not consider myself worthy of such things. Seems silly, but that's the truth. Working on that, slowly does it.

Robert Monroe's book "Far Jouneys" was the book that really set me off on some kind of a spiritual path.

My mother and also my grandfather traveled out of body! Both are very pragmatic people, and have everthing to lose by telling people about their experiences which they take for granted.

A friend said to recently, in dozens of people he had given DMT to, only about 10-15% saw beings and of them, there was no doubt that the beings were as they appeared to be and what they said they were!

I just read this from Martin Ball.

http://www.realitysandwich.com/energy_ego_and_entheogens

He says beings and all this phenomena are projections of the ego!

None of this is news to me. It is called Advaita (which means not two)

I know dozens of people who see reality in this way, and I can see reality in this way too - but it is a choice to perceive reality like this and I feel it is ultimately disingenuos and boring and doesn't really go anywhere.

Julian.

 

Yeh i have had both 'Journeys Out of the Body' and 'Far Journeys' sitting on my shelf for years, read them many times. Also borrowed a new book recently by a guy who did the courses and actually met Monroe a few times before he passed over.

Thanks heaps for the link : ) I like this comment:

Ha, well put, that's what I was looking for

Submitted by Jedi Mind Traveler on Tue, 10/19/2010 - 18:46.

the beings in hyperspace seem real, the beings on earth seem real, but in the last analysis, all concepts of separate being, are but smoke in the clutch of a dissolving hand, to paraphrase Alan Watts.

I am familiar with Advaita. Fair bit of text on that page but seems to be dealing with the same topic hey, will read through it all but looking at the comments it seems like people will always hold onto their own views without general consensus, which is fair enough.

Personally, i feel that the Advaita type view/path is the only one for me, in terms of overall big picture outlook.

I get what you're saying about it being boring or whatever, but i personally don't believe that i could handle it if i knew that the 'evil beings' i have encountered were really external from my self and not some kind of projections. I think i would just flip my fucking lid big time.

On the other hand, if it turns out to be true that the fearful appearances feed and get stronger on fear while being repulsed by love, and the loving ones vice versa...

Then in that case, it trumps the 'reality' card. Whether they were viewed as actually external or not, if they can be overcome and cannot truly hurt us as such, then all is surely well. Although, having said that, the way to overcome fearful beings seems to be recognising them as aspects of ourselves and dissolving them with love. Can't really maintain a divided viewpoint and do that at the same time.

[kayesem]

On death, liberation etc;

"If all the temptations of deceptive visionary images, which are continually referred to in the texts [bardo Thodol] as hostile forms of the intellect, can be recognized as empty creations of one's mind and can be immediately penetrated, one will attain liberation. These images dissolve away and the awareness reaches the peaceful and imageless release of nirvana. Every fleeing from these fearsome and terrifying bardo images and every feeling of being seduced by certain colours and visionary apparitions is a step into the ambivalence of the feelings of hatred and desire and is attachment to the opposites of divine consciousness. It is therefore a step back into ignorance, for the antagonistic forces of desire and aversion prevent salvation and unity of awareness in the state of liberation." (1989:69)

One of the reasons that one slips into this bardo from the former stage is that the anxiety, and the terror engendered by the fear of the unknown, and augmented by the appearance of holy images which often stimulates guilt feelings, causes the awareness-principle to evoke the negative side of its subconscious content, thus resulting in the appearance of wrathful images. What one experiences in the bardo is the direct result of one's karma and the nature of one's psyche, whether it be spiritual or carnal. The images of peaceful or terrifying deities, or other frightening forms are there to purify the awareness of ignorance and to offer an opportunity for the awareness-principle to grasp their inner nature. Should the soul react negatively to these images, it passes on to the next bardo. A positive response offers release. One's negative reaction is due to one's karma and lack of spiritual unfoldment.

Should one fail to gain liberation in the Chikai or in the former stage of Chonyid because of one's negative karma and negative mental and emotional traits, there is still hope to liberate oneself at this stage; not from samsara, however, but from rebirth in one of the lower planes of the six worlds. Liberation at this stage also emancipates the awareness-principle from having to undergo the "Judgment" in Sidpa bardo. A soul gains liberation, totally or partially, at whatever stage his karma allows. As said before, preparation beforehand through spiritual practices is an indispensable task to be undertaken by those seeking a better soul-life. Chokyi Nyima, the author of The Bardo Guidebook, advises this succinctly:

"The Buddhas very kindly gave many teachings and methods of practicing, but all these different systems converge at one point: right now, while you are alive, get used to the non-conceptual wakefulness called luminous dharmata, the state free from concepts, beyond a meditation of mental fabrication . . . Accustom yourself to non-conceptual wakefulness now so at the time of death you will not have to go through the remaining bardos [Chonyid and Sidpa] to a new rebirth. Resting in non-conceptual wakefulness is enough to cover all aspects of practice . . . " (1991:137)

Here, in Sidpa bardo, the lights, sounds, and images assume a sight more ghastly than the previous bardo. The psychic motion within one's consciousness is intensified to the utmost degree and it projects out with a centrifugal force all of one's inner negative qualities that takes on forms that corresponds to those qualities. It is in this bardo that one's negative karmic deeds play strongly upon one's conscience. In Sidpa, the feelings of guilt, of hatreds, greed, anger and other egoic expressions seemingly assume terrifying phantasms--demon-like, to torture one's consciousness of all of the misqualifications of one's personal energy. As the peaceful deities are said to emanate from the heart-center, so the terrifying images that one experiences in the bardo are said to emanate from the head-centers. One's main objective and natural inclination at this state as in previous ones, is to escape, to flee from these frightening, awesome and gruesome images. This is a mistake of the dualistic mind, however, that requires a reiterated warning: all that is experienced in the bardo are mental projections, and are, therefore, unreal. The bardo experience is subjective and is but a mental journey with an alchemical purpose. To acknowledge mental projections as real and to be deluded by them causes the awareness-principle to further entrap itself in the snare of Maya. This is spiritual death to the consciousness which is referred to by the Piscean Master when he advised his disciples to "let the dead bury the dead."

Edited January 7, 2011 by kayesem

[The Dude]

DERP!

Edited January 8, 2011 by The Dude

[mutant]

note: by monotheism I meant christianity, jewism, and islam. nothing else and certainly no form of paganism or syncretism which I actually sympathise - you wouldn't know, but I even sympathize psychedelic theism.

[ThunderIdeal]

is kay still hanging with us?

not up to date with this thread but want to post this experience.

since the flood hit brisbane, i go to bed within 20 minutes of getting home from work (and leave for work 10 minutes after waking up). exhaustion/fatigue is supposed to play a big part in sleep paralysis. it was especially important to be at work on time this particular day, and i had a long series of dreams where i was checking the time on my phone and i had slept in somehow. the chronology might be messed up but i think it was after those dreams, i checked my real phone and saw that i hadn't slept in. now, laying there in a sleepy, maybe hypnagogic state, wondering when my alarm would go off, i imagined the very first bit of sound my alarm makes, convincingly (like a hallucination), it seemed to push me right onto the brink of sleep, and with difficulty i forced my body to wake up, it was a long struggle, then i imagined the alarm again and i was instantly paralysed again, this happened a few times. i realised there was no fear so i thought i'd imagine the sound again and try to maintain the state rather than waking out of it, but it was too late and i just went to sleep naturally.

the interesting thing was how thoroughly i was stuck in paralysis. if you imagine wakefulness and sleep, and sleep paralysis is a thin band that seperates them, it was as though that band was very thick on this occasion. whilst in little danger of slipping into sleep, for long periods i was lolling my head from side to side, looking around and moving other parts of my body. i got a real feel for the experience, but while battling to wake up i was free of the usual intense fearfulness.

i tried typing out an analogy using a robot having trouble with its movements but the thing i really want to describe is difficult for me to describe in a way that others would imagine, but it is very mechanical in nature. essentially muscles could only be half-exerted momentarily before they stopped responding for a little while, so it was a game of shifting my consciousness around this sophisticated but definitely gross machine, using limited cognition as efficiently as possible to find new outlets that would respond to attempted exertion, and somehow (here is where the robot analogy fails) successful exertion feeds back into the brain creating a more wakeful, energised state. within a short moment, unresponsive outlets are usually good for another bit of movement. it is strange indeed to have a muscle respond to your desire that it move, albeit weakly, only to switch off before the intented motion is completed, and it is strange to have parts of your whole body jiving in that fashion.

apparently sufferers have success moving their eyes (i might have read that in this thread) but as i was on my back and could roll my head from side to side, i found this was the most useful set of responsive muscles to maintain wakefulness.

[rahli]

Psychedelic Information Theory: Shamanism in the Age of Reason

[folias]

woof woof, I just find advaita to be a boring belief system!

[woof woof woof]

woof woof, I just find advaita to be a boring belief system!

 

Folias,....you might say boring. Some call is being sober. Being sober helps with having 'right view' as budhists call it. Having the right view helps understanding the diversity of religions or beliefs or dmt elves or what have you..... so that is what I mean with only believing in one GOD,... or some bible quoters.."jesus being the only way"

Again,... for me perception is the only thing we have,... having the right perception means having a down to earth (sober) one,... so meaning not to get caught up in any technicolor religions or rainbow hubly bubly psychedelicasy vibes. Even with the bible or koran or other established religions it means just looking/recognizing the red thread of their contents.

[Razor]

i think it would be very naive to think that the beings or entities or elves or whatever we see and interact with during a DMT experience were just made up by our own consciousness because no own can prove it, it is just an opinion no matter how intellegent the person making that statement its still just an opinion i reckon the guy saying its just all in our heads should up his dose, i know he has been studying it for fifteen years but that means fu*k all its still just an opinion

[mutant]

^^^^ this is an opinion too. An irrational opinion, that is. An opinion we've heard many times in this and other threads in much better/longer versions.

the basic thing is not the dose, but who's speaking and under which concept & approach the drug is taken.

{3-line-post without any serious arguement and with no mention for setting, set and individual, only dose} , IMO = BELIEVER STUFF

Wanna argue? OK here's your chance:

Tell us how you would compare what is experienced by some people in larde doses of psychs [spirits] to the dellusions of a man on a psychotic break. You see any similarities?

[The Dude]

Wanna argue? OK here's your chance: