rivea corymbosa experiences?

[apothecary]

Acidified cold water extracts do indeed seem to be the go.

The alkaloids seem to be pretty soluble in water so I doubt ingestion of any solids is required (and probably detrimental to the overall experienc).

Shelf life should be similar.

MORQ if you were on a deserted island, it wouldn't be deserted

[X. Torris]

I've heard claims that even the small amount of chlorine in tap water is bad for LSAs--- I have no idea if it's true, but if one is soaking the ground up seeds, might be good to use distilled water? Or is this not necessary?

[sobriquet]

Distilled water costs quite alot for small amounts.

More economic is "Noble's Pureau" sold from Coles and Woolworths which has 0% of salt elements and must be made through reverse osmosis or something.

I use it for carnivorous plants and orchids requirements in lieu of pure rainwater.

It's about $6.50 for 10 L.

[Maturin]

This guy I know, well he very recently tried some seeds, crunched in his mouth, spat back into a glass with some saliva, and topped up with tap water (horribly chlorinated Adelaide tap water). Left over night, consumed next day.

Let's just say, he was very impressed. VERY impressed!

[occidentalis]

This guy I know, well he very recently tried some seeds,4

How many?

[mauve]

...people...i think i've got buds forming on my Rivea...

Is it the real thing, or ...?

Gomaos, does it look like the buds you had on your plants ?

http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/uplo...8_92_392776.jpg

pictures of the whole plant are here: http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/inde...;blogid=67&

i am trying to stay calm...but if it is really blooming, i'm going nuts !!!!!!!

[transDiMenTional]

well ive had rivea flower before and yours certainly looks like it has flower buds to me!

[gomaos]

A Strange looking Gnome just told me he has injested 30 corymbosa seeds

2 Hrs After Having 3.5 points of IV Methamphetamine.

He has also consumed approx 5 Standard drinks & is going to consume around another 6 or 7.

Has anyone heard reports of Combining

Methamphetamine & LSA?

wow what a combo.

A foaf once had a small amount of 2cb (10mg approx) while he was on MA (no beer or anything else)

and it came on very very strong and became so strong he had to take benzoes to calm down.

Another foaf told of a similar experience mixing MA& Acid. It was so strong he totally lost control of what he was doing/i.e.couldn't do anything...

but then I guess it also depends on your tolerance...

ladida...

[ballzac]

This is strange: "Because of the extremely fine line between effective and lethal doses, the ground seeds were only ingested by experienced persons.. Dosages of less than 10 seeds are usually employed for psychedelic experiences, which last for about 6 to 8 hours." http://www.shamanic-extracts.com/xcart/sha...ivea-corymbosa/

I would have thought, particularly because this particular plant's purported 'clean' feel, that the lethal dose would be very high. I also though much more than ten seeds were required.

[lampy]

A FOAF just tried some rivea seed in the last few days and had minimal results. Just wondering if the injestion method was incorrect.

1st time 30 seeds were chewed in 5 seed lots and held in mouth for approx 10 minuntes- result small euphoric comeup similar to mushrooms and then no other effects(definatly no breathing walls etc).

2nd time crushed 25 seeds later in day with pliers and mortar and pestel and soaked mush with water, saliva and lemon juice for 5+ mins and then consumed- result same as 1st time.

Does anyone have any other techniques to maximise alkaloid uptake.

Should my FOAF be consuming more seeds 50+??

Maybe they seeds are old and weak- They were bought from a reliable source so this is not thought to be a reason.

btw no nausia was encountered in both experiences.

any help would be appreciated

[gomaos]

This is strange: "Because of the extremely fine line between effective and lethal doses, the ground seeds were only ingested by experienced persons.. Dosages of less than 10 seeds are usually employed for psychedelic experiences, which last for about 6 to 8 hours." http://www.shamanic-extracts.com/xcart/sha...ivea-corymbosa/

I would have thought, particularly because this particular plant's purported 'clean' feel, that the lethal dose would be very high. I also though much more than ten seeds were required.

I doubt that there's any validity to that claim that a low dose (of less than 100) rivea seeds could be fatal.

Frankly I don't believe that at all.

I remember some years ago, a FOAF who really wanted to know, took 200 morning glory (ipomoea violacea most likely) seeds, 30 woodrose seeds (argyreia nervosa v speciosa) and after half an hour just went to sleep.

No nausea vomiting etc was experienced.

I don't recommend to try the same at home but will now research toxity of rivea seeds.

[gomaos]

did a research on rivea corymbosa toxity, came up with nothing, the best thing I found was on erowid, it appears old Dr Hoffmann has tried rivea corymbosa himself, he actually injected LSA:

LSA Dosage

Includes Morning Glory and Hawaiian Baby Woodrose

by Erowid

LSA is a naturally occuring psychedelic chemical with a potency 1/10 to 1/30th that of LSD. It has some similarities in effect to LSD, but is generally considered much less stimulating and can be sedating. Structurally LSA and LSD are quite similar.

Dosage of LSA is not well established since few have experimented with the pure chemical and recorded their experiences publicly. Hofmann tried an I.M. injection of 500micrograms of LSA and found the effects medium-strong. Hofmann later reports that the active oral dose of LSA at "2 to 5 milligrams".

Dosages for Morning Glory seeds vary over a wide range. Of the 39 morning glory experience reports as of December 2000, the 5 rated with 'strong' intensity describe taking between from 280-525 (rough approximation) seeds, the 'medium' intensity reports vary between 125 and 600 seeds, and the light experiences vary between 25 and 700.

There are a number of confounding factors in trying to interpret the available data including the many different seed sources, the reported variation in potency from the same seed supplier from order to order, and widely varying preparation / extraction techniques. One interesting piece of data is that 4 of the 5 'strong' experiences used no solvent wash as part of the preparation, but many of the other reports do include washing with naptha or other non-polar solvent. This link is tenuous, at best, but may be worth further investigation.

One very experienced Morning Glory seed user has written a report which suggests that 150-250 seeds would be a minimal dose and with "a strong batch of seeds" 500-1000 seeds would produce a "psychedelic" experience. In private correspondence, this author also described taking 1-2 thousand seeds from weaker batches.

Quotes Regarding Dosage & Effects of LSD / Morning Glory"Hofmann first established its effect in 1947, 13 years before it was known to be the active principle in ololiuhqui... He showed that the drug was active at doses of 500 micrograms to 1 milligram. No entheogenic effect was noticed by Hofmann after taking 2 milligrams of isoergine, although sedative symptoms similar to ergine inebriation were prominent. Hofmann's description of perceiving the 'unreality and complete meaninglessness of the outside world' after taking 2 millgrams of isoergine (Hofmann 1963a), however, sounds like the paradoxical depressent effect experienced commonly with the threshold doses of psilocybine and other entheogens and it is possible that isoergine is entheogenic at higher doses." (Ott Pharmacotheon 1993, pg. 128)

"Experienced users of entheogenic morning glory seeds usually start with low doses, later working up to higher amounts if a more intense effect is desired. The wise user will begin with no more than 4 or 5 seeds of Argyreia nervosa, or no more than 20-25 seeds of Ipomoea violacea. Seeds of Turbina corumbosa are about one fifth as potent as the seeds of Ipomoea violacea. In Mexico, I have seen doses of the true ololiuhqui seeds, Turbina corymbosa, measured as the quantity of seeds which will fill a bottle cap, and Wasson also reported this volumetric dosage aid in the Sierra Mazateca (Wasson 1963). Osmond found 60-100 seeds Turbina corymbosa seeds to be an active dose, though he chewed and ingested the whole seeds, rather than making a cold water infusion of ground seeds (Osmond 1955; see Note 11).

The seeds are not ingested whole--they are not active in this form (Kinross-Wright 1959; B.P. Reko 1934). They are ground to a fine powder, which is then steeped for several hours in cold water, after which the solid matter is filtered off and discarded. The liquid is then drunk neat or with juice for flavoring." (Ott Pharmacotheon 1993, pg. 140)

"[Ergine] is an active compound and has been established as a major component in morning glory seeds. It was assayed for human activity, by Albert Hofmann in self trials back in 1947, well before this was known to be a natural compound. An I.M. administration of a 500 microgram dose led to a tired, dream state with an inability to maintain clear thoughts. After a short period of sleep, the effects were gone and normal baseline was recovered within 5 hours." (Shulgin, TIHKAL, 1997, page 497)

"The slight difference in chemical structure between the ololiuqui constituents and LSD is very significant with regard to hallucinogenic acitivity. The effective oral dose in man of LSD is 0.05 mg [which] is thus about 50 to 100 times more active than lysergic acid amide, which is active in doses of 2 to 5 mg. Furthermore there is not only a quantitative difference between the principles of Ipomoea violacea and Turbina corymbosa and LSD; there is likewise a qualitative one, LSD being a very specific hallucinogen, whereas the psychic effects of lysergic acid amide and the total alkaloids of these two plants are characterized by a pronounced narcotic component (Hofmann, 1968)" ( Botany & Chemistry of Hallucinogens, Shultes & Hofmann, 1980)

Approximate Number of Morning Glory Seeds by Exp. Report Intensity Rating

Strong 300 no naptha, 280 no naptha, 400 no naptha, 440 with naptha,

15g (525*) no naptha, 350 no naptha

Medium 475 no naptha, 240, 400, 450, 125 naptha, 500, 300, 315, 154, 315,

110, 350, 315, 245, 470, 315 no naptha

Light 140, 150, 200, 250, 350 naptha, 38, 25, 48, 500 no naptha, 125, 250,

200, 700 starting fluid (heptain, diethyl ether, hexane), 262 no naptha

* - using 35 seeds per gram for rough estimates

no reports of deaths or even of an LD50 of LSA.

All in all a pretty harmless substance I should say.

But beware of mixes:

A foaf once took a pretty potent piece of cactus and 6 woodrose seeds and boy did he trip.

At the peak of it, a "hole", a "vortex" opened up in the wall, ready to pull him in.

He said" oh god I'm not ready yet" and chickened out.

Wonder where that hole would have led.

But please, nobody in reasonable health, will die from 30 rivea seeds.

that's just bull...

Then again, bruce lee died because he took one or 2 paracetamol tablets, or was it aspirin?

Everything is possible, really...

Edited January 16, 2007 by gomaos

[lampy]

Thanks gomaos for posting that info.

i also found that erowid, or the net in general does not have much info about rivea.

interesting about the

Osmond found 60-100 seeds Turbina corymbosa seeds to be an active dose, though he chewed and ingested the whole seeds, rather than making a cold water infusion of ground seeds

The seeds are very bitter though, is this usually a sign of potancy??

Maybe my FOAF should try a 60-100 seed dose and see what that produces.

also found this on Erowid

[Editor's note: Rivea corymbosa and Turbina corymbosa are synonymous.]

the subject aquired 10 seeds of rivea corymbosa from a local supplier here in vienna.

one seed was coarsely crushed with a teaspoon, the crumbs were poured into a glass of water. the glass was kept in a dark place for about 25 minutes, occasionally stirred. the water was filtered through a coffee - filter.

the end product was sipped over a timespan of around 45 minutes. the water was held in the mouth for some time before swallowing.

this amount (1 seed, water - extracted with mediocre efficiency) produced noticeable, albeit not very dramatic psychotropic as well as peripheral effects (hands seemed a bit numbed, maybe just an illusion).

the psychological effects are hard to be put into words, since they were quite subtle. it did have a little spiritual tonality to it.

anyway, these tiny seeds seemed to be equipotent with the argyreia - nervosa seeds the subject has tried. i must confess, however, that the subject always employed very small amounts of a. nervosa (again, 1 - 2 seeds, cold water extraction for 10 minutes). this is because the subject is somewhat distrustful about the safety of LSAs for entheogenic purposes. rereading the abstracts dealing with ergonovin/ergometrin (probably the main active compound in these seeds) at PUBMED confirmed his cautious approach to these substances...

***

conclusion: the seeds of rivea corymbosa (the 'real' ololiuqui) should be consumed in the order of magnitude of 1 to 10 seeds, not in hundreds, like some sources state. some ethnobotanical fieldwork in the regions where ololiuqui is still used, as well as chemical analysis with modern techniques is needed to shed some light on this mysterious plant.

[Bugman]

So far.....

first attempt

=============

50 seed were ground and combined with: enough lemon juice to make a loose paste and 1 glass of water. Water used was filtered tap water, not certain about chlorine content.

This was kept in the fridge for about 4 hours with occaisonal stirring.

Resultant mixture was filtered through a coffee filter, seed mush discarded and extract consumed.

Taste was not at all unpleasant.

This was late at night, roughly 2 hours after a heavy meal.

Waited 1 hour, no effects felt, off to bed.

woke after approx 90 minutes and couldn't sleep for the remainder of the night. Still not feeling anything, just couldn't sleep. Also was not tired / lethargic the following day, slept at usual time.

The heavy meal was probably the main thing that caused lack of effects. Maybe 50 was not enough for my weight / metabolism.

Second attempt (a few days later)

==================================

Same prep as previous attempt, but used 200 seeds, only 2 hours in the fridge and consumed on an empty stomach around midday, approx 15 hours after completion of last meal. Also, chased with a beer.

No nausea, but felt very full. After 1 hour had only managed to consume about half a beer.

Another 15 minutes and the effects were now *very* apparent.

Still no nausea or cramping. Feeling very drunk, not attributable to half a beer on an empty stomach. General looseness of limbs, lack of inhibitions, swaying whilst walking. I bumped into walls / doors and felt no pain. I did get a couple of cuts/ scratches but didn't notice until the following day. Had a "perma-grin" and slight giggling.

Some "body load" for lack of a better term. Basically, whole body felt heavy, not painful, just an effort to move. When standing, I felt like sitting. When sitting, felt like lying down. When lying down, I melted into the couch. That lasted for a couple of hours, then vanished.

Peak lasted around 4 hours (including the body load), feeling "drunk" all the while. No visuals, closed eye or open eye.

The main effect was mental. Racyness of thoughts and absolute clarity at the same time. I was "free associating" alot between thoughts, ideas, concepts and experiences. I am generally not creative, even on research chemicals.

I had an overwhelming insight into myself. Some things became glaringly obvious, to the point where the afore mentioned giggling ensued.

I wanted to make notes, so much was stuff was surfacing, but every time i tried to write / type / dictate, it felt I was slowing my thoughts down and not allowing things to just flow. What I really needed was something to record my thought process, manual implements just couldn't keep up.

After the mental enhancement abated, mood was still elevated. Not euphoric just upbeat and energetic with some empathy towards others.

This lasted for a few more hours, had a snack and slept later than usual.

Elevated mood was present the following day although greatly diminished.

I have not tried MG / HBWR so cannot compare the experiences.

It was certainly very different to blotters. No visuals, paranoia or crash.

[lampy]

Thanks for that report Bugman

My friend is worried about the chlorine content of the water in perth, he has heard that it can nearly destroy all the lsa contents.

eg from wikipedia about lsd (should be the same as lsa i think??)

Furthermore, chlorine destroys LSD molecules on contact; even though chlorinated tap water typically contains only a slight amount of chlorine, because a typical LSD solution only contains a small amount of LSD, dissolving LSD in tap water is likely to completely eliminate the substance.[8]

definatly think distilled water is needed

[gomaos]

Thanks for that report Bugman

yeah thanks very good and detailed better than I could do it and you just about summed it up very well

My friend is worried about the chlorine content of the water in perth, he has heard that it can nearly destroy all the lsa contents.

umh... just buy a bottle of perrier or mineral water... doesn't cost the world...

[Neoshaman]

A gnome i know said the following worked with noticeable results somewhat like low dose lsd but with a more narcotic sedate aspect

50 seeds about a month and half old were ground to powder in coffee grinder , dropped into a glass , a few drops of juice from fresh cut lemon was added , then 50-100ml of water stirrred more lemon juice added stirred again sat in fridge for approx 4 hrs stirring approx every hour , liquid was then drunk and held in the mouth swished a bit and then swallowed , felt mild effects after 20-30 mins , then fell asleep , fell asleep , phone woke him an hour later , nice buzzy type sensations quite pleasant .

The Gnome decided then to mix the mush which was filtered through a tea leaf screen to seperate from liquids mush was mixed with honey then consumed slowly sucking and chewing sweishing in mouth , effects were felt to increase stayed awake for several more hours before dozzing off . Some comedown /lasting effects the next day, the gnome advised me he will be seeing How well it goes when sallys with him too Will let you all know

p.s Pump Brand water was used as this had the lowest chloride content of the commercial brands available at the local conner store

[ballzac]

A friend of mine has experimented a fair bit with LSA containing seeds and has come to the conclusion that most if not all of the absorbsion happens withing the gut not the mouth. He has tried chewing and swishing seeds around his mouth for over half an hour and then spitting them out to no effect on a couple of occassions. He has also tried crushing them up and swallowing them quickly with a glass of tap water with quite strong effects. He feels that 20 HBWR seeds is a very visual and euphoric (although physically painful) experience. He has tried recommended dosages of reasonably fresh (i.e. couple of weeks old) rivea seeds, and found that it really requires much more than is usually stated. Sixty seeds did very little, and he only got the strange, first three hour effects, and then it wore off. Four hundred seeds, carefully counted, was a fantastic experience, although probably too much. It was quite a lot stronger than 20 HBWR, and although this made for a very enjoyable experience, the first 4 hours or so were a bit scary because of the severe sedating effects. He felt like he may not wake up if he fell asleep. Perhaps this was just a psychedelic effect, but it's always hard to know with substances that aren't as commonly used/studied as, say, LSD. In future he will probably try fifty seeds to make sure they aren't super strong ones, and then go 200. LSA is a great feeling, and having the psychedelic effects without the nasty physical side effects of HBWR, makes rivea a good source.

[Neoshaman]

A friend of mine has experimented a fair bit with LSA containing seeds and has come to the conclusion that most if not all of the absorbsion happens withing the gut not the mouth.

my gnome would concur although there is limited sublingual effect very subtle the time taken to come to a peak both after consuming the liquid and the mush , on HBWR know someone who took 30+ and had some extremely powerful visuals ...although i imagine would not be too healthy ,

I am suspecting dosage has a lot to do with body weight as from what i've read heavy body weights have needed more seeds to gain effect .........although this is just my theory

gnome will be playing with his friend sally tonight and probably 75-100 seeds of Rivea only a week old look for an update after 8.30 tonight , has your friend tried using something reactive like lemon juice ballzac

p.S Gnome would also like to know if anyone has tried offsetting the sedate aspect , with herbs that have the effect of waking one up such as sida root , E.sensis or something of that nature , Gnome does suspect that there would be no negative interactions but would like to know if anyone else has had results with a similar combination

[ballzac]

has your friend tried using something reactive like lemon juice ballzac

Yep. He hasn't found anything changes the experience, although acidified water may be essential if a water extraction was performed on the seeds. But because he eats the seeds the stomach should take care of it. He tried lemon juice as a sub-lingual paste with HBWR before expelling the paste, and still had no effect.

[Neoshaman]

Yep. He hasn't found anything changes the experience, although acidified water may be essential if a water extraction was performed on the seeds. But because he eats the seeds the stomach should take care of it. He tried lemon juice as a sub-lingual paste with HBWR before expelling the paste, and still had no effect.

Not really worth swishing then expelling, the gnome feels that there is very little sublingual aborpsotion although still some using this method , a friend tried 30 ground and capsuled with very little effect rivea that is so that was why the gnome used lemon juice thought it might draw something out that was being eaten up by the stomach acid although a lot regarding this plant is trial and error from what i have read on the net and very xcurious to know if the sedating aspects can be offset as it would be quite pleasant without that side of it

[ballzac]

I find that the sedating effects only last about four hours, and at high doses there can be an additional 12 hours of tripping after the sedative effects begin to wane. Not really a problem except that I find it a little worrying when it's strong. But certainly adding another drug to the mix would only serve to make me MORE concerned.

[Neoshaman]

But certainly adding another drug to the mix would only serve to make me MORE concerned.

of course i'm basing my theory on reported positive experience from the combination of two refined processed chem that coluld be created from these sources ... from the literature I have read in that scenario it seems safe enough.

The gnome said this does not make him 100% sure of the safety as LSA are actually reagrded as a sedative /downer type effect there are numerous cases of bad reaction when mixing uppers and downers, so will certainly be doing a great deal of reaserch before any such activities would be planned.

[Vertmorpheus]

I hear that negligent, polydrug abusing types have turned to hardcore admixtures such as damiana tea mixed with apple juice, or cocoa, to aid throwing rational caution to the winds of insanity and potential destruction.

You might die doing that, who knows.

Caffeine based drinks must make them resonate too firmly with the pedestrian and work-a-day.

VM

[ballzac]

I hear that negligent, polydrug abusing types have turned to hardcore admixtures such as damiana tea mixed with apple juice, or cocoa, to aid throwing rational caution to the winds of insanity and potential destruction.

You might die doing that, who knows.

Caffeine based drinks must make them resonate too firmly with the pedestrian and work-a-day.

VM

Not quite sure what your point is. Are you implying that mixing rivea with unnamed stimulants (ephedra for instance) is as harmless as mixing damiana tea with apple juice? If so then perhaps you are right...perhaps not. I'd certainly be cautious about finding out how safe it is.