Phleb protection/preservation/action

[_e_]

I have just recieved news of yet another disrespectfull and destructive attack on this plant by someone harvesting for dmt...

Im yet to get full reports but a number of medium sized plants were unearthed and stripped, in a spot where there are tonnes of fallen phyllode's..

I cant express how angry, sad and dismayed this makes myself and others...

what can we do about this situation???

[alkatrope]

 

 

[_e_]

i had considered putting up a large reward for information regarding who was responsible...

but i think that perhaps this community deserves better of myself then to think anyone would need a reward to come forward with information...

what do you think?

Edited July 30, 2006 by min(E)rval

[PD.]

yeah seriously, What happened to those phlebs was fucked, plain and simple.

If its not park managment slashing the crap out of them, it some dickhead harvesting them.

This problem wont get noticed by the mainstream until there is a major harvest and hundereds of plants are lost. If anyone is contemplating harvesting live plants, just stop and think....

That mountain is the only place on this earth that they grow.

[_e_]

i just had a funny thought :

i wonder if the people responsible for this would be cool with me taking to their family and loved ones with a scalpel, removing their pineal gland and extracting dmt from it.... After all it would be in the name of evolving consciousness through the sacred molecule would it not?

Edited July 30, 2006 by min(E)rval

[medicinedan]

Phlebs should be completely barred from ethnoheads, the collection of seed should be pursued to ensure the species isnt completely lost. Maybe some other surrounding areas should be planted out with them.

There are plenty of other more plentiful sources out there

[Tripitaka]

Phlebs should be completely barred from ethnoheads

I'd say that the true ethnobotanically minded would be the minority that actually care enough about this population to ensure that this style of thing doesn't happen! Its all too easy for "Joe space cadet" too find the links out there that talk about % tryptamines together with the ease of species identification would certainly be a lure for those with in proximity to rape the population and spread disease between the plants.

[Pelinster]

Yeah we were pretty surprised to see this while we were there. Looks like it was done pretty recently. We did see some cars parked up there but no-one was to be seen in person. Thinking back, it might have been a good idea to take the numberplate details of the cars we did see parked there, but the odds are it wasn't them anyway.

I can testify to there being plenty of leaves on the ground up there. This kind of damage is just totally unnecessary. The strange thing is that they left the leaves, taking only bark. Perhaps they are misinformed? Has the bark ever been tested for alk content? Not that it would do the Phlebs any good if they did have.

Here's a pic of part of what we found. Click Here if you can stomach it.

[medicinedan]

I'd say that the true ethnobotanically minded would be the minority that actually care enough about this population to ensure that this style of thing doesn't happen!

This is true, I was a little angry at the time.

[Tripitaka]

 

Well I hope that they get nasty irreconcilable emulsion layers for being so fucking irresponsible!

[_e_]

the collection of seed should be pursued to ensure the species isnt completely lost. Maybe some other surrounding areas should be planted out with them.

There are plenty of other more plentiful sources out there

Totally agreed... In regards to seed collection and propogation and translocation, it is being done although at present any attempts to do so are as illegal as stripping the plant itself. Personally i feel that the only people who should attempt this process are those with the facilities and faculties to be sucessfull... There have been many trial and errors, and i think that theres enough information out there now to know how to do it successfully, and what limitations there are on doing it successfully.

BTW- pelinester, was that the extent of the stripping or was that just an example of what had been done?

very strange that the phyllodes were left, quite mis informed joe space cadets i think!

[wandjina]

How incredibly selfish....isn't it common knowledge these plants are endangered? You'd think in researching on the net these individuals would have come across mention of this fact....obviously they are either young and stupid or old and arrogant.

[Torsten]

Well, it wasn't Julian for once as he isn't in australia at the moment, however I think his selfish justifications have provided a clear conscience to those following in his footsteps

[_e_]

I would think that julian wouldn't harvest live phlebophylla, he has been spreading the word in regards to conserving this species in his own way for quite some time... Also, i know that friends of his have been making efforts to support the cause in their own ways as well (check the wikipedia and the comments relating to the preservation of the species).

Personally i think that Julian shouldnt be brought into this issue as his comments in regards to harvesting Acacia (whilst some may say questionable) Are in regards to a complete different species (obtusifolia) which is in a whole different ball park.

I would think that any exploration of the harvesting of obtusifolia should take attention off the phlebophylla, although perhaps torsten there is some truth in the possibility that zealousness may be misconstrued and unfortunately result in a misinformed attitude regarding the phlebophylla.

As far as i know the only time Phlebophylla has been harvested in a sustainable manner was just before the fire and just after the fire... Im also aware that these occurrences are the only times Julian has publically commented on the harvesting of Phlebophylla (and at which time he was only commenting on the fact that he 'knew of' people harvesting sustainably at this time).

It should further be noted that one of the only known attempts to sustainabily harvest this plant resulted in prosecution by the Victorian national parks. When people tried to collect what parts of mother plants that hadnt been burnt in the fire, they were caught and prosecuted by park officials... There have been no other prosecutions or busts for collecting plant material other then this one case to date...

Personally i feel that the only time Acacia material should be worked with is when it has 'given' itself up, i.e is dying or dead, and that if one has looked hard enough and has done the hard yards, there is plenty of material to be found rather then taken... This is just my perspective however and i think its something that needs to be confronted and explored.

Edited July 31, 2006 by min(E)rval

[Pelinster]

BTW- pelinester, was that the extent of the stripping or was that just an example of what had been done?

Yeah, that was pretty much the bulk of it man. There was about 3 or so more branches above what you can see in that pic. Maybe 2 or 3 large plants.

[MORG]

I don't know much about this plant. I conducted a search of Biological Abstracts today and found one article in the scientific literature:

Heinze, O'Neill, Briggs, Cardwell. Buffalo Sallow Wattle Acacia phlebophylla of Mount Buffalo Victorian Naturalist (Blackburn). 115(5). Oct., 1998. 205-209.

There may be others of a biochemical nature, but for botany or conservation this was it.

I conducted a search on Google and found that of the 10 hits on the first page of an "Acacia phlebophylla" search one was bare-bones botanical info, one was a seed business and the other 8 were all primarily DMT-related.

This is a very poor recipe for conservation of a threathened species. It's a narrow endemic plant (an entity not reknowned for attracting conservation dollars), there is basically no prior published botanical or conservation research, it contains a psychoactive compound in high purity and concentration and lies not too distantly from a major metropolis. And imagine writing a grant proposal for conservation research into this species!!! I might be being a little too cynical (I hope) but I think the alkaloid profile of this species might make attracting funding from the Australian Research council just a tad more difficult in our current political climate.

It might be futile but I would not willingly make any information on the alkaloid profile of this species publically available. The thing has no chance currently.

The damage done to the population that started this thread truely is disgusting.

And if anyone can supply me with a copy of the paper referenced above could you please PM me? It's not available online.

M

[_e_]

Torsten-

just a thought, but would mentioning julians name publicly in regards to this issue be incriminating without any real necessity nor information linking him to this particular act or acts of its nature..

Personally i feel it a little un necessary to link ANYONE's names to anything of such a nature unless there is dire need to, or it was certain they had a role to play... It is speculation at best, and to me seems to be somewhat based on a personal bias u may have with his character.

I completely understand how ones blood boils over such issues, but it is important to keep some level of composure in regards to interpersonal relationships and identities of members of our community.

The reason i said in one of my posts "please pm me with any information regarding possible identities of people involved rather then posting publicly" (or words to that effect) was to avoid any witch hunt or name slander scenarios that have already haunted these forums of late..

Just my perspective anyway.

EDIT: sorry, i see the part of my post where i asked for names and information to be kept private and communicated via pm was removed when i removed the whole 'reward for information' content... but seriously people, if u have an idea or a speculation, ccommunicate it but keep it private until you actually know for sure, or someone can validate said suspicions.

Edited July 31, 2006 by min(E)rval

[hebrew]

Torsten-

just a thought, but would mentioning julians name publicly in regards to this issue be incriminating without any real necessity nor information linking him to this particular act or acts of its nature..

Personally i feel it a little un necessary to link ANYONE's names to anything of such a nature unless there is dire need to, or it was certain they had a role to play... It is speculation at best, and to me seems to be somewhat based on a personal bias u may have with his character.

I completely understand how ones blood boils over such issues, but it is important to keep some level of composure in regards to interpersonal relationships and identities of members of our community.

The reason i said in one of my posts "please pm me with any information regarding possible identities of people involved rather then posting publicly" (or words to that effect) was to avoid any witch hunt or name slander scenarios that have already haunted these forums of late..

Just my perspective anyway.

yes i agree with you there E.

and in regard to the phleb, what a thoughtless destructive act to do, somitmes i really do not understand the human race and its greediness, what damn idiots.

very sad

[Torsten]

A few years ago Julian was harvesting the material and posted about it on the forums. Those people who were actively involved in propagation projects to save the species were shocked by Julians blazen statements that HE needs to take the live material from the plant and that it is right to do so because the plants are teaching him how they want to be saved (insert a few leyline and energy rambles as well). Long discussion were had. Many quite heated. In the end Julian claimed spiritual supremacy and that there was no need for him to justify his actions to anyone and that he will continue to harvest material from phlebophyllas when he feels the need exists.

Julian signs his posts with his name, so I am not telling anyone anything new or at least anything that is not public record.

Julian also never recanted these comments. I have noticed that he has tempered a little in his views and now espouses the harvesting of dead and damaged material only. He also mentions the fungal disease spreading risk of this activity, but not in a way to actually stop people.

If Julian no longer believes that individuals have the right to take plant material of endangered species from a Nationa Park, then he shoudl make a statement to that effect. I have been quoted his spiritual supremacy crap as an excuse by two other people who took the same line of thinking to justify their theft of this plant material.

Eli, you can't on one hand claim to be angry at the people who took the material recently and on the other ignore that Julian did the same thing and provided many readers with the same excuses. Julian either stands by the comments he has made on this issue, in which case it needs to be highlighted that they are a major part of the problem that started this thread, or he needs to make it known that his views have changed, preferably by editing the public record excuse that is now everyone else's excuse.

Just because Julian is our friend does not mean he can get away with what he has done and the long term consequences of his actions. He either stands by his coments and actions or he denounces them. I pointed these long term consequences out to him at the time and repeatedly since then and if he choses to not do anything about them then he is part of the phlebophylla problem, not it's solution.

btw, Julian and I used to have major character and ideology clashes and we are both well aware of them. Julian's views on many things are not as naive and extreme as they used to be and I am not as hot tempered in my late 30's, so we don't have the clashes anymore. To assume that I made this comment is about personal issues is simply not correct as I quite enjoy his company these days and we get on just fine. However, THIS issue was one that we at the time agreed to disagree on for the sake of harmony. That doesn't mean it has disappeared. It's still here and it is still a problem. And it just happens to be part of the problem you wanted to discuss. Why not start with making our friends accountable before we move onto strangers? Not doing so would be hypocritical.

[_e_]

Torsten,

thankyou for your reply.. I in no way intend to be hypocritical on this matter, and i am sorry for 'assuming' that you comments were based on personal bias.

I was not aware that julian had expressed such sentiments in regards to this issue, and in the time i have known him i have never heard him espouse the virtues of harvesting phleb, or any other anthropocentric or egotistic approach/attitude to sacred plants.

Perhaps the discussion/thread you refer to was before my time, or perhaps i have forgotten/overlooked it.

If anyone could provide links to the relevent threads that would be great.

EDIT-

ive done a comprehensive search through this section of these forums and found absolutely no reference to anyone condoning or admitting to the harvesting of acacia phlebophylla... Moreover ive seen Julian mention harm minimisation tactics in regards to visiting the community, and also stating that no one should be harvesting fresh phlebophylla no matter what... The only thing he mentions is that some people were harvesting prior to the fire, but even then the emphasis is on investigating peoples intents and motives and is definately not 'encouraging' nor making 'excuses' for peoples actions.

But if there are threads i cannot/havent found someone please point me in the right direction...

Edited August 3, 2006 by min(E)rval

[folias]

I guess one of the main issues here is that we are dealing with an area that is still strictly illegal...if it were possible for someone to safely sell, say, mimosa hostilis root bark, within Australia... it would minimise attempts of people who look up on the web DMT and Acacia and find Acacia Phlebophylla and Maidenii as the being the only two recognised species which contain DMT.

The second is pretty much a dud most of the time and the first we already know about... the summary of Mulga´s site is: "Obtusifolia!" and its a very prevalent tree on the coast of NSW... it is even possible make brews out of the phyllodes if they are of a strain which the phyllodes taste like grass rather than a much nastier cocktail!

And so there are a few seemingly gormless people who are just not informed, nor seemingly very intelligent about the issues involving phlebophylla.

Four years ago I did take some fresh material.

The full report is on my web site and has been there a long time!

http://www.conone.org/transceptual.html

I don´t regret it and only wish I had taken more if I had cognitive prevision that the fires were coming!

And also, the small trees the material came from were very clearly almost dead from the fungus... if this was not the case I wouldn´t have touched them. Also, I have never picked more than 2-3 phyllodes from a living tree apart from these ones... and since the fires I have been up there once and collected some phyllodes that had fallen onto the ground.

I know at least a couple of other people who have done the same thing... and I said on this web forum its a pretty marginal activity to pick the dead leaves from the bottom of the tree...

I was going to use that material for groups at the conference in iquitos, Peru - but I have decided to postpone that until next year.

Pretty much all the material I have harvested has been for group work, which has been public and not charged for. Through this, I think many people have come to an understanding that this is not just an ordinary source of DMT and have come to value and respect the tree more.

There are more than a few other people out there who have been taking material from the mountain for many years, they may have told me, but not many others! Just because I have been open with my research with the tryptamines, means that people can use me as a some kind of whipping boy example or say that I did things that actually I haven´t - see if I care about the Correio de má notícia!

Torsten and I have had very long and heated exchanges about this issue... and I no longer have charge with his emotional charge regarding this issue... and I disagree with him that all should abstain from utilising plant material from this plant.

"National Park" and "Endangered Species" are human concepts... I personally feel the tree is very safe, most of it is living in areas where human beings would have great difficulty in accessing. Torsten and I both know one very well informed botanist who feels the same way I do about this issue!

Some people are selfish moreons, and to say there are leagues of selfish morons following simply in my foot steps is a bit rich I have to say!

Basically, there are certainly a few people in the world, who I would actually encourage to go up to the mountain, discover their connection with the tree and pick phyllodes if they feel they needed to and take as many phyllodes from the ground they feel they needed to... these people would not include those who are learning to make DMT, or anyone who is just going to extract DMT from the plants.

I would suggest these people are few and far between and I would have met one such person at the conference in Peru, for whom the acacia trees are coming to him in ceremonies and teaching him their icaros.

Phlebophylla is like fine wine... there is not much point wasting fine wine on people who don´t know the difference, but actually, I think its quite important that people who do have the experience and do have the understanding present, actually connect with this tree on all levels! Therein lies a greater chance of us all finding a way to sustainably grow and utilise the incredible gifts of this plant.

Julian.

[transDiMenTional]

a lil bit off subject but it intrigues me how similar phlebs phyllodes look to simplex....

Edited July 31, 2006 by Alice Dee

[Ed Dunkel]

I don't know much about this plant. I conducted a search of Biological Abstracts today and found one article in the scientific literature:

Heinze, O'Neill, Briggs, Cardwell. Buffalo Sallow Wattle Acacia phlebophylla of Mount Buffalo Victorian Naturalist (Blackburn). 115(5). Oct., 1998. 205-209.

There may be others of a biochemical nature, but for botany or conservation this was it.

This is a chemistry related one (quite old):

Alkaloids of Acacia. I. Nb,Nb-Dimethyltryptamine in Acacia phlebophylla.

Australian Journal of Chemistry (1967), 20, (6), 1299-300. CODEN:AJCHAS ISSN:0004-9425.

This one might also be interesting:

Seigler DS Phytochemistry of Acacia - sensu lato

BIOCHEMICAL SYSTEMATICS AND ECOLOGY 31 (8): 845-873 AUG 2003

[occidentalis]

Just a note from a finnicky conservation biologist ;)

A. phlebophylla is not rated as endangered. It is rated as 'rare and threatened' by the Vicotorian authorities. It has not been rated under the Cth EPBC Act or by the IUCN.

[MORG]

Just a note from a finnicky conservation biologist ;)

A. phlebophylla is not rated as endangered. It is rated as 'rare and threatened' by the Vicotorian authorities. It has not been rated under the Cth EPBC Act or by the IUCN.

Fair enough. I'd like to know more to see if it would satisfy requirements for red listing.

There really seems to be jack-all known about its ecology or genetics.

Could make an interesting and worthwhile honours or PhD.