A different answer on Nicotiana legality

[SaBReT00tH]

Recently a friend saw 100's of Nicotiana tabacum seeds for sale online and the user asked the seller if they were legal to grow. The seller a person with a permanent plant selling store online replied with 'Growing tobacco is legal in Aust. and using it yourself is no problem either but you can't sell the leaf, raw, cured or cut.'

This is quite different to the speculations I've read on SAB. Does anyone have any comments, objections or input??

[Torsten]

what I have posted is not speculation. I have been dealing with the ATO on this issue for 4 years now. Obviously this would not be the case if there wasn't a legal problem

I have previously posted the actual Act, the letters from the ATO, the interpretations from the commissioner for taxation, the extract from the British Tobacco website, and whatever else I have accumulated on the matter. If anyone still wants to believe it is legal to own, grow or possess any part of the tobacco plant without license then they are really not very intelligent. Sabretooth, feel free to take advice from someone who has provided no evidence to support their position, but don't complain if you get into trouble. Maybe you would be better off actually doing your own research based on the material I have posted. There really is little you can argue against the actual legislation (which I have posted several times).

This topic is getting really tired.

[Auxin]

Yeah, I know a england based tobacco seed dealer that basically says the same sabre- when I question him with the legal arguments he says "yes, I am aware of that interpretation of the law but I've never been busted for selling to Oz". He just wants to keep his juicy cut of the aussie market.

Well, Torsten is more honest and well read on this than most- I'd go with what he says over wishful thinking.

What I wonder is would the cops recognize tobacco plants? :ph34r:

On my side of my country when I grow it people are more likely to say 'wtf are those? Some kind of giant cabbage?'

(wishful thinking again go with what T says)

[Torsten]

I should clarify that just becuase it is illegal doesn't mean that you can't get away with growing small numbers. I can't see any individual getting busted for small numbers unless they are selling seed/chopchop. But there is a big difference between what's tolerated/unenforced and what is legal.

You'll also find that most ebay tobacco seed traders have been shut down by the ATO. If one hasn't just keep an eye out until he stops sellign and then ask him why. chances are he got a visit - or at least an email

[SaBReT00tH]

sorry Torsten didn't mean to sound like I was saying you were wrong, I just wanted to provide what this guy was saying so it the parts of what he said could be discussed and debated (and proven wrong) like it has been now, and discuss why his interpretation or thoughts on the tobacco law have made him believe that it's legal. Of course we'd trust you more than anyone else, especially when it comes to the law and don't worry, I'll be telling my friend not to buy those seeds, even though he already knew due to me telling him about the info in your previous legal tobacco threads regarding the seeds and your quest for exemption of certain Nicotiana species.

[SaBReT00tH]

This is the latest update from the seller!!

He wrote:

"I thought I would let you know that we had to pull them off eBay as we became aware that there was new legislation at hand regarding selling the seed. I finally have some clear direction with the legislation.

It is legal to grow and use it. The Tobacco Companies and the ATO have pushed legislation through to make illegal to sell any part of the plant now. Seeds included unless you have a Government license and pay the enormous excise. So grow it, enjoy it but don't get caught trying to sell any of it.

That's all , just thought you might like to know."

[Torsten]

actually, he is still wrong. the law makes no distinction between selling and possession. obviously the ATO enforcement is mainly concerned with selling, but under the law there is no reason why they can't bust people for merely possessing the seed.

[Rev]

people....

this genus is a WEED

even more so than 'weed'

just guerilla grow it

[SaBReT00tH]

yeah, I agree torsten. Rev, that'd be cool eh!! Most strangers who could even walk past it probably would never ever guess what it really is. hahahaha.

[Ed Dunkel]

What is the deal with all the ornamental flowering Nicotiana species/varieties you see in nurseries?

And is there an exemption with native Nicotianas and native(indigenous) nurseries/regeneration plantings projects etc...?

[drama mode on]Are there going to be extermination projects set up by the government, to clear all nicotianas from parks [drama mode off]

Or is it going to be this crazy situation as with the NSW laws and native Erythroxylon australis?

Ranting over.

[Auxin]

What is the deal with all the ornamental flowering Nicotiana species/varieties you see in nurseries?

And is there an exemption with native Nicotianas and native(indigenous) nurseries/regeneration plantings projects etc...?

I beleive last time that was asked torsten explained that the law was in regards to "tobacco" and the word 'tobacco' was left undefined meaning it could conceivably be applied to any species of genus Nicotiana (I think that was on EBA) and with no exemptions stated for natives. The ATO has made ebay stop selling N. tabacum and N. rustica in Oz sofar.

Edited May 4, 2006 by Auxin

[Torsten]

Th e word tobacco was never defined by parliament, so the default definition is whatever it says in the oxford dictionary. This states that tobacco includes all members of the nicotiana genus. Hence the interpretation of the law by the ATO means ALL species within the genus. THERE ARE NO EXCEPTIONS!

Ornamental and native species are just as illegal as the commercial tobacco varieties.

To fix this mess we need to get the term tobacco defined by federal parliament. The ATO has mentioned they would like to see it limited to the commercial species tabacum and rustica, but they cannot make a submission themselves. The submission has to come from a voting individual or group and should be accompanied by a petition. I am spending the next few months familiarising myself with MPs agendas to see who is the best suited to push this through. It would be good to get a government MP to sponsor this as it has a better chance of success. There are lots of angles to use for the approach and I will be trying them out on some politicians shortly.

[Cptn Insane'O]

You should go into politics Tort, I'd vote for you. I wonder how a hybrid between tabacum and some of our natives would go. Would certainly look different. Which species did them blackfella (full respect) most prefer? I think most of these species were quite delicate herbs compared with tabacum but I've never been able to find out much about these plants. Where's a good source of info on Aussie Nicotiana anyway? Anyone got pics?? I hope they're still allowed in this country:P

[Torsten]

You should go into politics Tort

To be successful in politics the first thing you have to do is to compromise on your convictions. 'Party line' politics does not allow for much individualism. Could you imagine me saying 'yes sir, no sir' to any of those scumbags in canberra? That's why I got OUT of politics years ago. It was a young labour conference (of all things) that made me see the error of my ways ;)

Which species did them blackfella (full respect) most prefer?

Wasn't that gossei and mingulpa?

I hope they're still allowed in this country:P

I am pretty sure I stated the contrary above.

[SaBReT00tH]

Tort, what about getting a Greens MP to sponsor the Nicotiana petitions?

[Torsten]

we are not looking for a law change here, but just a definition of a term. I actually think the liberal government would be the best option because they generally prefer less government and hence would probably have a narrower definition of the term. also, getting a government MP to table it has a higher chance of it being accepted.

[ENtiTY]

So has there been any progress with the definition of term as regards the gov?

[Vertmorpheus]

Anyone planning on going ape to grow tobacco please just take care to watch the spread especially around waterways and occasional flood zones... whilst tabacums arent anywhere near as tough as mauritiana's, I have seen the odd much neglected patch thats started at someones back door and ended up in a local creek area....like most solanums if baccy gets a bit stressed or doesnt have ideal conditons it just knocks itself up and spawns all over the place, even as short as 6 inches tall with barely a handful of adult leaves on them, a couple generations on. These things seedbombtheir surroundings and the seed seems to stay viable for a long, long time even in the soil for something so small. When they do hatch the plants are pretty good at bolting for water and nutes , much better than some of their more common competition, then once tapped inn they just spread out shading out anything "natural" tryinng to grow below.

Ook Ook Ook,

VM

[Guest Øskorei]

I concur with Vert on guerrilla growing - the pods produce thousands of seeds and spread very quickly over a few of seasons, so planting in public areas is only going to fuck up the natural ecosystems even further. Whilst entirely illegal to grow as Torsten mentions, it's doubtful that there'd be too much busting of individuals growing 1/2 dozen for their own personal usage. One would need to also consider who the fuck is going to recognize what it is anyway - unlike say cannabis or somniferum, where your neighbor peering over the fence might register the plant on sight.

By all means plant (& seed manage) in your own backyard at your own risk, but please carefully consider the environmental degradation if planting in public areas.

Cheers,

Ø

Anyone planning on going ape to grow tobacco please just take care to watch the spread especially around waterways and occasional flood zones... whilst tabacums arent anywhere near as tough as mauritiana's, I have seen the odd much neglected patch thats started at someones back door and ended up in a local creek area....like most solanums if baccy gets a bit stressed or doesnt have ideal conditons it just knocks itself up and spawns all over the place, even as short as 6 inches tall with barely a handful of adult leaves on them, a couple generations on. These things seedbombtheir surroundings and the seed seems to stay viable for a long, long time even in the soil for something so small. When they do hatch the plants are pretty good at bolting for water and nutes , much better than some of their more common competition, then once tapped inn they just spread out shading out anything "natural" tryinng to grow below.

Ook Ook Ook,

VM

[Lono]

Well said Vertmorpheus.

This is the first weed warning I've come across here. After reading Tim Low's "Feral Future" I think its long overdue.

Read the book, it makes some scary predictions about the weeds we currently battle and some "sleepers" which are likely to infest vast tracts of land during our lifetimes. You'll be surprised how many species that regularly pop up here are mentioned in the book.

We really need to be careful with the exotics we plant and natives we displace, even things like coffee and tobacco that have been here for centuries already or some acacias which have always been here can do enormous damage when taken to new locations

[Torsten]

This is the first weed warning I've come across here.

Pay more attention then