Zarathustra

Heh, I guess I ought to get myself a guinea pig Other than being potentially dangerous, is it conceivable that my method could have produced some quantity of pseudoindoxyl? Also, would boiling have killed any potentially dangerous molds - or perhaps some molds release toxins that would not be affected by boiling?Hmm, I've got an aquarium pump that I could use for your suggestion above, but how do I convert the tea to become slightly alkaline? (I have a pH/EC pen, so I can be precise about it, if needed.) Could I, for example, add baking soda or something to the tea? I also have hydroponic pH up/down solutions, but I don't have any idea if those are safe for human consumption. By the way, I ordered some of that Kombucha stuff - should be here in a day or two. Thanks, Mr. Kratom

First, Fractalhead - thanks for the info! I'll track down that article, and am looking for all the components I need to be able to consistently test this stuff. Secondly...based on the observed effects...I think I may have created some Mitragynine Pseudoindoxl! Hypothesis: Under the right conditions, damp powdered Kratom, frequently aerated as it is allowed to slowly dry, may oxidize into some quantity of Mitragynine Pseduoindoxyl. Method: Place damp (not dripping wet) powdered Kratom into a large salad bowl. Let it sit out at room temperature for a few days. Several times a day, aerate the kratom by (for example) scooping it up and letting it fall slowly back into the bowl. When the top layer is dry, shift it around so that the top layer is moist again. After a few days of drying like this, perform a simple water extraction followed by a water + lemon juice extraction. Combine the results of both extractions and then concentrate as desired by boiling. Store, and do with what you want (but be careful - read below!) Explanation: Alright. After reading this thread, and another about extraction techniques, I was all excited to see if lemon juice (and a longer boiling time) would help me create a more potent batch of Kratom extract. So I proceeded to boil a half pound (224 grams) of average (IamShaman.com) quality Kratom, along with a whole bottle of lemon juice (umm, too much?), for about 5 hours. After it was finished, I "squeezed" all the liquid out of the powder using an herb squeezing utensil, and then put all the liquid into a container for later use (Extraction #1). I normally throw the leftover Kratom away at this point, but since I was experimenting, I decided to keep it. I placed the damp Kratom in a large, open, salad bowl, and left it out at room temperature. Meanwhile, I sampled my water extract (Extraction #1). I'm not sure it was any more potent than my usual (lemon juice-free) extract (which also only involves about 40 minutes total boiling time). But it did taste much worse! It might have been a bit stronger, but unfortunately, I've become a bit tolerant to Kratom, so its hard for me to say for certain. Time passes. Every now and then I would "aerate" the damp Kratom, in an attempt to keep it from getting moldy. After a couple of days (now Saturday), I decided to re-use this Kratom to make a new extract. This time, I first boiled the Kratom in plain water for a couple of hours. I then drained off the resulting liquid and set it aside (this is Extraction #2a). Next, I boiled the Kratom again, this time with about a half bottle of lemon juice, for another couple of hours. Once this second boil was complete, I "squeezed" the Kratom to get all the liquid out (this is Extraction #2b), then threw the Kratom away. I mixed the results of both extractions (Extraction #2a and Extraction #2b - not the first Extraction #1 from a couple days earlier), then boiled the total volume for a bit to create a more concentrated mixture. Once at the desired volume, I poured the mixture into a container and put it in the refrigerator. Lets call this "Extraction 2a + 2b". Later that evening, I consumed about 60ml of this stuff (2a + 2b). (Based on the scale I use for my normal extraction technique, that would be about 23 grams of leaf. But bear in mind that this stuff has gone through a several boils by this point.) After about 15 minutes or so, I began to feel a bit nauseaus. I also felt "light headed" and "intoxicated" - but I wouldn't call it euphoric. I went to bed a bit later. I had a hard time going to sleep - it was affecting me pretty strongly. Moreover, my respiration was depressed, which is a symptom I used to experience when I first started taking Kratom. So, I wonder if some Mitragynine Pseudoindoxyl was created with my technique? Or perhaps one or more of the other Kratom alkaloids was concentrated and more evident (since most of the Mitragynine was presumably removed during the first boil - Extraction #1)? In any case, I can't say that the effect was exactly pleasurable. Perhaps I took too much. Or, it could be that whatever the active ingredient in my mixture is, it just doesn't have as favorable of a user experience as plain old Mitragynine. Anyway, I'm going to do some more experiments with it, and perhaps some of you guys might want to as well. But be careful - if you do produce pseudoindoxyl, it is presumably very potent stuff. Also, again, I presume that most of the mitragynine had been removed from the Kratom after my first boil (Extraction #1). What if I had instead just soaked the Kratom in water, drained it, and then let it dry out (with aeration) over a few days? Then, presumably, there might be more mitragynine left in the Kratom that could then be converted into pseudoindoxyl - i.e., this could be much more potent. Just some thoughts. Sorry for the long post! Mike, aka Mr. Kratom

Cool, that should be enough time, then. You guys keep me posted if there are any changes, though. It's no problem if anyone needs to backout.Thanks, Mike, aka Mr. Kratom

Hi Folks, Thanks for all the replies, both here and in private. At this point, I'm afraid that I must close the deal to any new orders Everyone that has already joined in will continue to get updates from me as the details are worked out. It will take about 2-3 weeks for Kavaman to fulfill the order. There's no need to pay me upfront - I'm going to put it all on my credit card. We'll work out my reimbursement later. FYI, and thanks for everyone's interest! Mike, aka Mr. Kratom

Just a quick reply to let everyone know that I have confirmed with Kavaman that there wasn't a typo on the price, and it is indeed for the good stuff. So, again, send me a private message for the price - and remember not to talk about it publicly. Thanks, Mike, aka Mr. Kratom

Okay, I just got a reply with the specifics. Its a very good price - so good, I'm going to have to write back and verify that we're talking about the same quality stuff and the same currency and all. The only catch is quantity - we'd have to buy a lot. But the price is so good (again, I hope there hasn't been a miscommunication) that I'm ready to max out my credit cards to buy as much as I can, enough to resell it, even.I don't think it would be appropriate to publicly disclose Kavaman's wholesale prices, but if anyone who is interested would just send me a private message agreeing not to talk about these prices publicly, I will respond with the actual amount. Again, this is just to protect my private conversation with Kavaman - I don't think anybody would appreciate having private information posted in public forum, ya know what I mean? Crap I'm excited! Mike, aka Mr. Kratom

Cool! So how about you e-mail Siebert and ask him to send you a scan of his results (you may as well also ask him about the solvents he used.) His e-mail address is [email protected] (his web site mentions to set the "importance" flag to ensure that he reads it.) Myself, I will start educating myself on TLC and order some plates. Also, someone mentioned in a private message to me that a "Kombucha" colony (bacteria/yeast) might be useful in promoting oxidation, so I'll get some of that stuff, too. Thanks, Mike (aka, Mr. Kratom)

I was wondering if anyone would be interested in pooling money together in order to get wholesale (or at least significantly discounted) pricing on premium *Kavaman* Kratom? I don't want to disclose in public the details of my private conversation with Kavaman, but it would be a good deal (especially considering the quality of his leaves). We could get wholesale prices (around 50% of retail) if we could purchase 50Kgs - but, that would be a lot of money to raise. Of course, with Kratom soon becoming illegal in Oz, now would be a good time to make one last big purchase. If anyone is interested in this *potential* group purchase, please send me a private message indicating: 1. How much you can contribute (please indicate the currency, btw.) 2. How much you currently pay for Kratom (i.e., price per gram or Kg). Also, please let me know the quality of the Kratom, and the source (with link.) Even if you are not interested in a group purchase, I'd still appreciate knowing how much you pay for Kratom, either via private e-mail or in this thread. I will then post a summary of the prices. Thanks, Mr. Kratom

I just received a reply from Kavaman, and he confirmed that Daniel's Kratom is the same stuff. Note that Daniel sells the whole dried leaf, not powdered, so I have seen what it looks like. Its been a couple of months since I ordered from him (since his prices are much higher than iamshaman.com), but if I remember correctly, I believe there was perhaps a reddish tint to the veins. I'll order a small quantity and confirm.Also, one thing I remember very well is that when I boiled Daniel's leaves, it produced a very strong, pleasant, smell that permeated my whole house. It smelled just like "regular" tea. The iamshaman.com leaves don't smell as good, nor as strong. FYI. Mr. Kratom

Is this something a non-chemist could do at home, with appropriate instruction? How much would materials cost, and are they accessible?If not, how would one go about having this done, and how much might it cost? I'm willing to put the time & effort into it, as well as a little bit of money, if someone tells me what to do. If interested, we could setup appropriate test cases. I'd also like to run multiple sources through the same test cases, such as kavaman (I don't have any of this yet, but I have his e-mail address now and will order some), iamshaman.com, and Daniel Siebert's sagewisdom.org. Any other suppliers I should know about? Thanks, Mr. Kratom

One other thing regarding the water/lemon juice extract - would it be better to perform a water-only extract first (to get the already-present salts out first), and then do it again with lemon juice? And, is it necessary to perform multiple iterations on the stuff, or is one long 4 hour boil sufficient? Oh, and after the 4 hours, should it be liquid or resin at this point? Sorry for all the questions, but thank you very much, Mr. Kratom

I saw that, but I thought the 4 hours was for creating resin. The reason why I'm only boiling for 16 minutes is 'cuz thats what Daniel Siebert's website says to do (actually, he said 15 minutes), and he seems to be a well-respected guy.I'll try this on my next batch. You're getting my hopes up now. If it significantly boosts the efficiency, and resultant potency, I'm gonna be one happy camper! Anyway, why is it that I'm getting some out without using lemon juice? Does this mean that mitragynine is present in salt form to some extent? And the lemon juice converts the rest? I saw that a pH of 4 was mentioned, either in this thread or another, does that sound about right? I've got a pH/EC meter, so I can be scientific about it ;-) Does anything work better than lemon juice btw, or is it the pH that really matters? Crap, I'm going to have to try this tonight. Thanks, Mr. Kratom

So, what is the best way to prepare Kratom, in terms of potency and extracting the most mitragynine? The only constraint I'm concerned about is availability of any needed supplies. I don't really care how long it takes, or how difficult it is (within practical limits for a non-chemist.) Vinegar is mentioned, but I'm not really sure what it does (although I presume it helps to dissolve more alkaloids.) Right now, I perform a water extraction. I boil a half-pound (224 grams) of powdered leaf for about 16 minutes, strain (with a fine-mesh strainer; I also use an herb press to get all the liquid out) and separate the liquid, then re-boil the leaf again for another 16 minutes, strain, etc. again, and then combine the contents of both extractions, and then boil that down to a reasonable size (so that it fits in my storage container.) I then have a stupid Excel spreadsheet to calculate the dosage for me (I'm lazy), based on amount of leaf used and resulting liquid volume. Anyway, will adding vinegar enhance this process?? What other techniques? Thanks, Mr. Kratom

Interesting thread. I had read about Mitragynine pseudoindoxyl a couple of months ago (before I found this forum) in that same paper mentioned at the beginning of the thread, and had wondered the same things. But, what's the conclusion here? There's a lot of chemist-talk, but unfortunately, I'm not a chemist! But I _can_ follow directions, so can anyone recommend a recipe for producing this stuff? Anyone actually tried it? My interest with it is not because I want a stronger drug, but rather, I want a more cost-effective drug. At least until my recently acquired plant gets big enough to support my consumption habits. Right now, the cheapest I can get dried leaf is $145 per pound - but its not very potent stuff, and so it doesn't last long enough. So, anyway, how about a step-by-step recipe for us willing guinea pigs? And if it might be dangerous, well, I suppose I could buy a rat and try it on that first! Thanks, Mr. Kratom

[Fyi, I just changed my display name from Mike2000 to Mr. Kratom.] Torsten, thank you _very_ much for the detailed response! I'm so glad you e-mailed me about the forums - finally a group of people that have detailed experience with Kratom. That's an interesting point about stress having a positive effect on potency. Anyone tried General Hydroponics (genhydro.com) "Chi" product on a Kratom plant? It contains chitin derivitives and other substances that make the plant think its under attack by fungus and/or insects, and so the plant responds by toughening its defenses. This theoretically helps to produce more robust plants, and some say that potency is increased in the case of cannabis. Anyway, since you mentioned stress having an effect on potency, I think I'll try this with my Kratom plant. Those of you growing Kratom hydroponically, can you respond here with the type of system you are using, along with the type of nutrients? I might try something a bit different, to see if it affects production & potency. Also, can anyone post a link to Kavaman's website, or wherever he sells his Kratom? I did a search on this forum, but the links that were posted no longer seem to work. I'd like to compare his Kratom to the others I've tried (as mentioned above, Daniel Siebert at sagewisdom.org, and iamshaman.com). Thanks, Mr. Kratom (aka, Mike2000)