Flip

Agreed Rev, Once we get something really desireable. it should be propagated the living hell out of. The "perfect form" is our own definition "not theirs" From there people can work with seeds and additional crossings perhaps into other species afterwards Even the creation of a chimera plant (indeed interesting) at times like this I wish I got my degree in Genetics... "Sigh" Archaea, Yes I figure it's going to be a decades more time Mind you, we've already collectively done more than decades worth of work. But the time factor should not deter anyone from contributing at all. If you're going to be growing caci might as well make some room for the best guess seed. Cacti are very low maintainance (don't take much room) and the rewards are valid, long lasting and significant Remember it's a total effort of many individuals it can progress very quickly with the right people Many people are growing cacti from seed and good clones If all individuals (noobs included) are encouraged to cultivate seed in the hope of getting something really unique then we're all benefiting as a result. and they get to tag their name on to it (read glory status for as long as you live) This type of collective project model is what made silicon valley and the home PC revolution not to mention the freaking web and legends out of some. Side Project: Yes, If we can get a good sample of the plants from the wilds That would be a excellent move and should be done asap. I am willing to throw in $100.00 USD to any such collection project. With the stated goals of braving the mountains, rebels (?) and whatever else... to settle both identification issues with the broad species as well as, locate and export prized specimens for preservation puropses. Some attractive clones can even be provided for sale (gardener/landscaping) to recoup expendatures and further the greater project through various vendors It's Very Clear we cannot rely upon individuals such as Karl Knize for such collections. Will MSS be willing to take a expedition if funding is located? it's worth at least one book... perhaps two. Is there anyone In S. America that can be of qualified assistance? Thoughts? [ 17. May 2005, 00:42: Message edited by: Flip ]

Alright here's the revised list: 1) a vigorous grower, 2) reliable rooter from cuttings 3) penchant for branching and pups 4) easy to flower (different colors) and produce seed highly viable seed 5) Resistant to fungal and bacteria infection 6) Producing a high level of chemical defenses (to ward off insect and pet damage). 7) Highly attractive (perhaps spineless) 8) Genetically homogenous for desirable traits IE it breeds true. well thats quite a list. we certaintly don't need them all but it's a list of goals some being much more important than others.... Next step: Focus upon the Trichocereus sp. Identify and locate plants that already have some any these traits that will cross breed (Trichocereus) There are already people that are collecting these clones and conducting their own cerrossing attempts. We need more individuals doing this As K Trout pointed out, We need a large selection of good plants to choose from. Such a diverse pool will both speed up the process and increase success. Either we get seed from a few good collection companies in the natural ranges and /or we get choice cuttings (if they're locally known) sent to us. The seed collection will be cheaper and perhaps a wider range of individuals. the collection of cuttings will be more expensive and I would think that only proven unique plants should be sent. So the first steps are to Both order seed from the seed company mentioned by trout (above) by all members capable to cultivation. and locate all proven cuttings (subjective or lab analysis) and propigate those asap among different people. Third, collect, number and trade pollen of different plants and resulting seeds if any. All growers should keep some form of records to avoid wasted efforts source of seed, cuttings history of crossings dates etc. How does this sound so far? [ 17. May 2005, 01:00: Message edited by: Flip ]

I am not advocating being paranoid, just awareness of several things and long term goals. I do disagree with some peoples penchant of Waving a freak flag around and shouting "Screw the man" is seemingly very attractive to certain people that type of behavior is only a childish rebellion... imnsho all that they accomplish making themselves a very easy target. but all of that is for another thread. lets just say that there are ways to communicate and talk about things that are superior to being so surface level. Freedom of speech does not equate to freedom from intelligence please lets move forward... can everyone agree that the best thing to do is find and cultivate cacti from healthy stock? I also suggest that we each encourage the growing of cacti from the good seed whenever we can. from that seed grown plants the strongest and healthiest are crossbred with others with the goal of producing a cacti that has these qualities (in no certain order): 1) a vigorous grower, 2) reliable rooter from cuttings 3) penchant for branching and pups 4) easy to flower (different colors) and produce seed highly viable seed 5) Resistant to fungal and bacteria infection 6) Producing a high level of chemical defenses (to ward off insect and pet damage). 7) Highly attractive (perhaps spineless) How do those sound? anyone care to add to this? [ 13. May 2005, 20:13: Message edited by: Flip ]

I believe that publication is a bad idea. The more disorganized and lower tech we appear the better. Believe it or not, these boards are the number one source of information for the "anti-drug" authorities. We can't give the impression of potentional success. It's very likely that they're not only daily lurkers but also thread starters and posters as well. I'm sure someone's reading this and thinking about their next promotion. It's a double edge sword... indeed. Therefore :Discretion is the key If we say that the goal of any cacti crossings is for something dubious it's not smart at all. We should talk about robustness and health of the plant vs "contents" or continue to refer to journal papers for data. like some people tried to earlier. But most importantly any such project should keep itself low key. I can imagine someone saying this is a international conspiricy to "manufacture". (imho) Any project should be as decentralized as much as possible. This will be both for our individual's safety as well as for other reasons (This includes posting all overt information on any board or fourm) quote: A question I often ask myself is, Does the exploration and development in these cacti promote the stigma that Lophophora has received in the USA? If I understand your question, The answer is YES! All such "stigma" is directly related to the anti drug efforts. There is a direct correlation between popularity" and efforts to crush it's source. in a sense, by publicising Trichocereus sp.. cacti -we're advocating their illegality. From what i understand, L.W. plants are currently endangered in the United States and should qualify for federal protection but are unable to get such status due to their history of use and continued harvesting by the reckless. The authorities would love for them to go extinct in the USA Conversely this only increases the demand, mystique and status among the druggie status set. quote: How can the community (so to speak) protect themselves and these cacti in the face of an uncertain future? Look at what happened to the hive. Much talk and info traded there... then people got too comfortable and talked too openly. wtf?, publishing photographs of their labs?!?! they got busted and the case was backworked to incrimidate the hive and its operators. such evidence was surely used to help incrimidate strike by (at the very least) tarnish his character in court. Further back in time, look at what the Central American indians did. Look at how mexican mushroom use survived. They (shamans) kept quiet and masked themselves in the facade of the oppressors manner and "religion". Those that made themselves known were tortured, killed and everything else, either burned or destroyed. The cacti will be safe as long as people aren't stupid, running at the mouth and appear to be upstanding citizens. Again, Discretion is the key It would not hurt (imho) if people on all the web forums understood and stopped talking quite so much (present company excluded). guess whos included? Such talk and marketing is (imo) pushing the illegality of certain plants in the USA and elsewhere... forward. Aussies or americans should not require any examples... If people stopped buying (quick fixes) from different shops or commodification of plant products (plant items for sale) and staried personal gardens instead ... the pressure would be greatly lessened / the likelyhood of criminalization. One serious upside would be the increasing of the likelyhood of locating a very healthy and robust cultivar to trade among collectors. and wouldn't that be nice... [ 17. May 2005, 00:53: Message edited by: Flip ]

2x oops [ 11. May 2005, 18:53: Message edited by: Flip ]

Might this be this due to the T. Pan greater gene count? (memory?) It was mentioned in another thread that there were different number (pairs?) within the different cacti. If thats the case I would tend the think off the bat that a San Pedro mother would be better (complete set / higher gene count?) and make up for anything that may be lacking in the cross but according to Rev's observations it's the other way around... I'm searching for that thread again and do some follow up when I look into it.

Well it's certainly not a San Pedro. It'll come more into it's own as it grows. Till then it looks more like my T. Peru's (bridg-iod) that I grew from seed a few years back and not the plants that MSS identified as classic KK242s. [ 06. May 2005, 20:08: Message edited by: Flip ]

America is a Capitalistic Nation. Those that are in the position, "Capitalize" upon those that aren't. Nowdays, we have corporate capitalism that uses the american government and military to achieve it's corporate goals. (Hence a posable 9-11 theory.... ) Still, I don't feel too bad about whoever goes over there "to work" This bi-national individual was living in a "well to do" neighborhood in California USA His cooperation further enables the aims of the bush administration, even if he was "just accepting a paycheck." Also we really don't quite know what he was doing there Since not all the statements being made by this administrations officers are truthful. [ 04. May 2005, 23:44: Message edited by: Flip ]

Sorry to hear tthat there is no good news (deep breath) You may want to start quietly asking around who has mescaline in about a month or two... They're VERY likely to be your people. it'll likely be impure (off white, tan/brown) they'll be selling it to their circle of friends and I'll bet you my paycheck they'll be growing new tips. Again, I'm sorry to hear about all of this it's bugged me and I've been thinking of how people can better safeguard valuable collections I guess the first line of defense is Discretion. [ 01. May 2005, 10:00: Message edited by: Flip ]

Good News however we'll be needing something that can destroy the spores that are "resting" on the skin of the cacti either that or a combo fungicide and germination media that will trick and make vulnerable the fungus after "germinating" from it's spore phase. that does not significantly harm the plant in the process.

well honestly I think it's the other away around they've got a LONG history with each other the saudi's have been bankrolling the bushes for decades. If in doubt I suggest you catch one of the documentaries about bush, 9-11 and the whole set of affairs that americans "aren't" dealing with. GW is really nothing more than a pawn the Vice prez has more going on... he met with the prince the day before in a closed session.

Best to avoid this by cultivating plants from seed. Or if you go have to trade cuttings wash and spray to disinfect. you don't wish to contaminate your clean plants with this. it'll turn your cacti ugly.

quote: posted 20 April, 2005 13:29 I just had a slightly related thought... What did the churches use for Church wine in the US during prohibition? To answer the question there was a specific exemption made for the christain/chatholic services made within the law Since most of the push for prohibion came from the pulpit one would figure they would have such provisions. This did allow a few wineries to "survive" (as such) and not forced into the vinager production market. you should see the public service /propiganda films that survive they're actually funny in a right wing religious... tooo bad I'm seeing such simularities with todays moronicly catered crap. [ 25. April 2005, 21:18: Message edited by: Flip ]

I am VERY SORRY to hear about what happened. Please take heart that this is not the end Those that are that so disrespectful and selfish will dig their own graves. HARSH BAD TRIPS not withstanding. I've had plants and other assorted things taken in the middle of the night as well. It strikes very deeply, for something like this to happen. In my case, I'm sure that the potted Sago Palms theft was motivated by a quick profit afforded by it's sale. as we're the other items In your case, I tend to also think... That it's a friend of a friend that has a interest in profit over cultivation working with at least one other are your culprits. No interest in cultivation but extraction and profit. Perhaps retaining the tips (they would be hard to prove as yours). I'm sorry to say that, but you may also look at the local dealers vs just cacti or entheo people. someone (and their friends) that has a bit of extraction know how and a history of selling drugs for profit / gratification. Perhaps you can ask your neighbors (if you live in a slightly urban area) to see if they witnessed anything. can you follow the dirt tracks (from the uprooting) and see if you can gain some info from footprints, tracks and or ANYTHING that might help ID these people I hope that you recover what it yours to care for.

Aside from being the lowest risk and cheapest route individual backyard cross breeding of preferred strains It's also the most time consuming... For now, just for talking purposes: 1) We all collectively encourage everyone (including noobies) to raise all cacti from seed, so that we can establish a broad base of genetic material to sample from. Preferably seed coming from the wild populations and preferred plants. 2) People keep track of their cacti (seed/trade source) years of age and environmental factors. to avoid duplications and wasted time/energy. 3) For a rough (quick and dirty) screening of preferred traits 4) Identify and obtain living samples (read cuttings) of these standouts. 5) Cross breeding and re-evaluation. 6) Repeat # 5 again and again. [ 24. April 2005, 14:10: Message edited by: Flip ]

I've had the same things happen to some of my cuttings that I've got as well as well as those made on different plants and species. (if memory serves) It still seems to be a infection at the site and resulting breakdown products. within the green areas and not at the (white core) I still say that it's a bacterial deal and not a fungal The way to settle this is to put it under a microscope! Clean blades or not I believe that the major factor is the water available for the culture. As my dry air (summer cuttings) tend not to develop this unlike some of the winter cuttings. Such bacteria are likely to be living upon the skins of these plants waiting for such openings. (every common) OR it's just a natural reaction from the plant that doesn't indicate additional harm is being done. [ 23. April 2005, 22:15: Message edited by: Flip ]

This is likely the result of a severe sunburn. young seedlings are translucent and can be damaged all the way through but too strong and direct sunlight as well as heat ( depending) Best to let the cacti have reduced light and water from the bottom up. It may take awhile (months) for a healthy lime green to return.

It sounds like a bacterial infection best to expose site to dry moving air and see what happens. It should be able to fend it off. Whatever you do do not believe that a paper bag and darkness are the best things for a cutting! They are not mushrooms being carried home. [ 23. April 2005, 20:59: Message edited by: Flip ]

once a genetic sequence is found and verified then it can be inserted in a variety of plants and animals. How about a goat or cow that produces "whatever" in it's milk? or a bacteria in a culture broth that spits out "more whatevers" back into it's culture? These are the possibilities of Genetic Modification. it's the old adage; "Knowlege is Power" Cross breeding and slection is a tried and true method (granted) However GM can give results rather quickly compaired to the multiable generations required otherwise. We just need the resources and know how to acomplish these goals. Currently there is the whole debate about the GM "super strain' of coca that produces 4x the amount of actives and is resistaint to US sponsored herbicidial spraying. [ 24. April 2005, 14:07: Message edited by: Flip ]

Your blistering is caused by the breaking of the outter skin and the resulting "scar" that results in the underlying tissue. It's common to see on cacti that have been shipped and "prodded" by other cacti's spines. Insect damage can also cause this. it's a healthy response to the damage. no worries. worry if infection sets in and the tissue becomes discolored (darkened) and "soft" but for christ's sake please refrain from poking and pinching Okay? in such cases, the best medicine is dry air and sunlight.

While there are some inter species hybrids that have been proven valuable One that comes to mind, is the Mule -as a cross between a (f) horse and (m) donkey. Unlike the above (which are both in the Genus Equus) , Lophophora Williamsii and the Trichocereus Pachanoi are in different Genus. making the likeyhood of crossing success- more difficult. However, Since all the Trichocereus are all self-sterile they must generally cross breed with another cacti from the same "species" or genus. examples being, T.Pan x kk242 and juules x (n) have shown to produce viable seed. To answer your question re: briinging out certain traits that any resulting offspring may be able to produce these two Wiki pages should help. Genetics overview and Mendelian inheritance But first there must be (imho) a bit more in the identifying of preferred cacti strains from which selective cross breeding can be best accomplished. With time there will be some GM toying with the sequences that go into producing this or that from different living things can be a bit more commonplace [ 24. April 2005, 14:04: Message edited by: Flip ]

you may just wish to repot deeper into the mix. I'm weary of most cacti mixes that I've seen offered these plants can take much more water than other "cacti" look in the forums for recommended mixes and it won't hurt to let any newly received plant to "rest" a week to heal up from shipping or transplanting before watering.

Brugsmansia were classified as "tree daturas" based largely upon chemistry and the likeness of their flowers. The Plants we're reclassified by the late Dr. Tim Plowman (who passed in 1989). He was the heir apparent to Harvard's Richard Evans Schultes He was "the worlds authority on the enthobotany of Coca and Erythroxylum". The book "One River" by Wade Davis paints a good picture of this field researcher. Sadly after his death almost all of his rare collected plants we're tossed into the compost pile. Many came from areas that have now been logged and are lost forever. I know of one living brug clone that was saved from the composting and bears his name - having appeared in the allies (OTJ) catalogue. RE: Datura Best do your research... there's a reason why it's not popular. we have several species native to the area and Every year or so another dumb kid or "hippie" dies from experimentation or from a prank / vicious joke. "Choose your allies wisely..." [ 01. March 2005, 11:13: Message edited by: Flip ]

That might be a bit of a problem here in the USA As part of the whole endangered species status, it's likely to require specal licencing of some sort to keep such animals (even if the intent is to breed). add to that the whole evil drug aspect.... and you'll get the idea it's may be dangerous to try and do the right thing. it's not like you're going to be able to keep these guys quiet at night... the entire neighbothood will know... not to say that it's not worth a try.

apothecary, quote: Uh, the reasoning behind putting cuttings of all kinds, not just cacti in reduced light is so their growth cycle slows down. well by that logic, it would also inhibit the ability of the cutting to form roots. wouldn't it? then there's no advantage. quote: It isn't as visible with a cactus, but if you try taking a cutting of another plant and leave it in the same lighting conditions as its mother plant, it'll simply continue growing rootless until it dies.well, that doesn't quite make sense. Perhaps, you're thinking the likelihood that any broken branch falls to the ground with (less light availability) as the rooting tigger. Otherwise the conditions are going to be the same for the mother and the "clone". If a plant has evolved to be able to root from a cutting/leaf (as often is the case) under these circumstances then that theory is incorrect. I can't see how your reasoning makes sense. I always thought that any cutting is placed in a brightly lit, protected (humid) environment so that it it could still be protected from greater evaporation from it's leaves then it was able to offset. all the cuttings I have made don't continue to grow developing leaves... they abort. I believe the availability of water going into the plants system is the major factor here..NOT LIGHT. quote: There is nothing the plant can do about that, if it recieves light, it has to convert it to energy. don't you mean it converts light (energy) and stores in a chemical form useable by the plant? Also, it requires h20 molecules to complete that process check the photosynthetic pathway... you'll see. the process will halt if one of the steps is broken. quote: The only way it will root is if you slow down that energy conversion cycle to give the root mass a chance to re-establish its ratio to stem/leaf mass. Huh? I thought we we're talking about stimulating a cutting into rooting... there is no root mass to talk about. also Are you saying you're trying to halt it's ability to capture energy and produce food for itself so that it can expend it's limited resources and produce roots? (this sounds of shroomery logik?) wouldn't it be better to continue to let any cutting produce food for itself and apply that to root production? So long as it's not water starved (read wilting) you're not stressing the plant more than required. maybe thats why it's customary to place most softwood cuttings into water until rooting occurs. quote: The cactus will form its roots from where the fresh wounds harden (I wish vascular plants would do this sometimes, it'd save me money on rooting powder [that's what rooting powder does if you didn't know]) and simply pup, perpendicular to the groundI think that your first point is misattributing the fact that a cutting tends to root at the end of the plant, that just so happens to be where it was separated from it's mother plant. in vascular plants (including cacti) there is two way traffic the inner layer carries water and "raw materials" up from the root system. The outer layer transports synthesized materials down. According to my reasoning (stated in posts in another thread) hormones that stimulate root production are carried "down" the length of the plant. They stimulate rooting because they gather at the terminal end of the vascular pathway. Rooting at the gravitational bottom can be explained by the interruption of the vascular transport system and "pooling". vascular plant do self propagate (rooting from cuttings). rooting power is a hormone mutagen. it actually changes cell structure, it's doesn't "activate" dormant root cells, but changes cell types. The callous caused by rooting powders/hormone are different than a healing over of a wound. they're tissues that have been mutated and trying to re-organize themselves. due to a cacti/succulents structure I've said that external application of rooting hormone causes more harm than good on our cacti. quote: If the cactus isn't in just right conditions mid/post-rooting, its growth pattern will mess up for a while until everything is straightened out.no matter what. making a cutting seriously affects the branch cut. The immediate loss of water and overall "shock" has to have a reaction.... and as I've said before all my cuttings have aborted new leaf growth asap. I think that the main thrust of the topic was how to minimize the effects and etiolation. sorry about the long post, thanks for reading .. I'll edit it down in a hour or two...