gamma.goblin

I guess plumbers must be somehow different to a cleaner, in that there is none of your percieved 'coercion' there. Or would you feel just as guilty? An anarchist can learn to be a plumber sure, but how is that different to any other job? Seems like delegation of specialised roles to me. It might seem logical to you that a person with a compromised immune system wouldnt go into a public toilet, thing is, most people dont realise they are compromised untill they come down heavily with something. Fecal matter transfers all kinds of nasties through the air. Your logic to me appears short sighted. You did say I was wealthy, Post #40: See thing is I never said I was wealthy, I said I was white and I come from a white demographic. You got the idea of me being wealthy all on your own. One could logically deduct that you foster a perception white people from white areas are rich, which is racist. It would seem to me that a person who appears as passionate about this as you are would want to be a little more forthcoming with the info, after all, you did get very shirty when I asked if you live a "fairly western-developed-first-world lifestyle", replying: Bit of a self defeatist arent you? On the one hand, you desire an overhaul of society and allude to knowledge of examples of better systems, on the other, you decide to keep the information close to your chest and are a self confessed slave to "capitalist matrices". Great strategy for achieving your success there. As a result all Ill be thinking about is the crazy hypocritical anarchist who makes no sense. But not for long hopefully ;) Thanks for the congrats btw, do I get a prize? Thing is, I dont feel like a loser whos been repeatedly proven wrong, I feel like Ive been stuck in a revolving door while the villiage idiot on a metho binge hurls his poop at me...but hey, different people have different perceptions of situations.

Well you see, sometimes things happens like the pipes getting blocked and backflow occurs, or the flush mechanism breaking. Good luck cleaning that with disinfectent, a brush, a cloth and a bucket. That would require someone with a little more skill and knowledge of how the system works. Time to call in the professional. Or should everyone also be a plumber? You havent succumbed to pathogens from everybodies excrement because we have a properly maintained(in most cases)public tax payer funded sewerage system. Remember I said I worked in nursing homes? Well you have to be pretty anal about invisible nasties in such an enviroment. You have a strong immune system, good for you. Maybe if one day it fails you might take a little more concern. In regards to apparently being upset with my arguments being flattened, whatever floats your boat dude...Im not angry, Im baffled and bemused. The one thing that really frustrated me and got me hot under the collar was you continual insistance I must be rich coz Im white, an obviously racist deduction, though I didnt take it as racism, I took it as pig-headed determination to paint me into a box to suit whatever farcical view strokes your ego. Its great you have such general solutions like 'the community looks after them'. But how? Another list? Beaurocrats will be pleased. So Im wondering when someone on the honour list doesnt do their part, what do you do then? Coerce them? Vote them off the island? Take punitive measures? I am sorry for putting words into your mouth about you not thinking the plan has a chance, obviously you believe it can work, just not in the world(sorry 'system') we inhabit. The 'system' is made up of people, people have formed it, its people you have a problem with...thats fine, people suck, just remember the fact when you start up your utopian society. Though "People wouldnt do that"? Im confused, what am I supposed to have said people wouldnt do? I thought Ive been illustrating things people would do, but there you go... You are kidding yourself if you think jobs and class and people being left to fend for themselves are not part of non-capitalist societies. And what makes you think people in capitalist societies have no community concern? I guess all those public funded and voluntary social service and security systems dont exist... Oh, and as to why I keep referring to it as an 'honour system', its because that what it relies on, the system fails if people dont keep to their 'personal responsibility'. I prefer the 'rewards system', where we pay someone to do the job, and if they dont do it, we reward someone else. Rewards work very well with most people and its much easier to rely on a few than rely on many. Of course this doesnt mean as a society we think its ok for people to shirk personal responsibility when using a public toilet, if a cop catches you pissing all over a wall instead of a urinal, you are in trouble.

Sorry bub, my mum died when I was a toddler, I have an estranged father and I moved out of home as a teenager. Im the one in my share house who does most of the cleaning, because I keep the least busy schedual. I dont have to do it, but I like to help people(that I like) and I dont enjoy pathogens. But fuck me though I must be blind coz thats the first time Ive seen your oh so simple everybodys personal responsibility roster. Guess what, I already clean up after myself, I think most people do. Unfortuantely, some people dont. If someone doesnt you automatically assume its a lack of personal responsibility, but thats not always the case. Someone who is struck down with a violent illness and hurls all over the floor can hardly be expected to clean it up. Unless of course the throwing up cures the violent illness. As well as the impaired, whether it be self inflicted(drunk etc) or the result of a physical condition(parapalegic, fused spine, arthritis etc). If you expect them all to do it themselves, I think your vision is of a more cruel society than that which we have today. Oh thats right, the next responsible citizen would do it, provided of course they hadnt weighed up their options and decided that they really needed to be somewhere else right now rather than scooping crap up off the floor and washing everything down. Good luck convincing the broader community that possible public health hazards should be left up to your honour system(can I use the term now?). Pathogens dont care whos turn it is. How efficient it would be to retrofit all bathrooms with cabinets full of cleaning equipment, much better than having dedicated cleaners who can manage many toilets with one set. At least you are aknowledging that it would have no chance at all, no wonder you were so reluctant to share. Im curious what kind of 'enviroment' you think this could possibly work in. Very small communities of hand selected individuals is about all I can see. The rest of us though will continue with the working system untill something thats actually better comes along. Thanks for confirming that it would be pointless to read your anarchist material, coz if thats the best you can do Im now thoroughly convinced I wont be finding what Im looking for, which is political and social practices based in reality. While it was nice to finally meet an anarchist, I cant say the experience was enlightening.

In spite of being well aware of the old 'arguing on the internet...' adage, I have nothing better to do, so Ill respond to some of the things I decided were not worth my time earleir. What an honour, my first participated thread destined for the bitches and gripes forum with me at the helm Ive read and read, Ive still not come across an alternative to our current system of maintaining public amenities. You gotta realise, I dont share your agenda, if I ask a question, and dont get a reasonable answer, Im hardly going to care much about all the other stuff designed to shift focus from the fact you dont have one. Its still not answering my question, the one I actually care about. Yes, I said that to illustrate I was referring to attitude. Some people, even given all the opportunity in the world wont try to better themselves. They will never be a highly trained professional because they dont want to do it. I asked 'what do you propose?' From what you are saying, thats the only example I could think of. Youre right Ive missed the point, I cant get a straight answer out of you for a simple question! Youre correct Im not bothered to browse the material, you havent yet convinced me it would be worth my while, in fact you have repeatedly demonstrated and admitted that it hasnt helped you come up with any alternatives. If you cant relate the concepts in a constructive manner(and youve baulked at the first simple problem), youre not exactly giving me much reason or motivation to bother looking into it for myself. I set conditions for my acceptance to your proposal that I read up on your pet political love, so far you havent convinced me they have been met. Very little yes. And untill one of its supporters can tell me a solution for cleaning public toilets that is realistic and makes sense to your average layperson Ill continue to be clueless about them. It would be rather pathetic if it was true that I want to shoot people for petty reasons, but I dont, so its all ok, you can relax. See, Im not the only one who can bite on something obviously not meant to be taken literally. Thats right, coz they are bees! Theres gonna be some difference. So their delegation is genetic, its still social delegation. You asked for some examples, I hoped you might have been familiar with a very well know and long running 'documentary'. I take it Im ok on the lion comment then? Cool, I gave a few of the most popular examples in the hope one might ring a bell. No, I dont just want to sit back, I want to accept and plan for eventualities that occur such as this. Burying ones head in the sand to the nature of the darker side of humainty is self defeating, and a 'refusal of responsibility'. Ok, definition of racist: 1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others. 2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination. 3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races. Adressing them in order: 1) I never said, nor do I have any evidence that would make me believe that their race determines cultural or individual acheivement, same goes for racially based superiority. I believe the develpoment of culture is dependant on the enviroment in which people live. If they had no need for keeping slaves, why would they start? Keeping slaves has problems, starting with the fact that most people dont really like being slaves. Slavery isnt an evolutionary goal in terms of genetics, its a cultural goal that was concieved, executed, and persists right to this day in many cultures. I dont see culture as racially dependant. Strangly enough though, your deduction despite my protestations that I must be wealthy because I come from a white demographic fits with the first half of the definition: "a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement..." 2) Well, I dont have the views mentioned in (1), so that eliminates (2) 3) I dont hate people based on race, I hate them based on individual attitude and actions. Now, I never said they were 'unevolved', just that the culture and technology hadnt evolved to the same point as some of the worlds other peoples. Nessescity is the mother of invention. Technological advances occur more rapidly in some places than others, its hardly racist to make the observation. You so far havent convinced me theres anything realistic or directly applicable in there worth reading. As a rule, I only tend to bother looking something up if Ive been given an indication that its going to be interesting to me, otherwise I fall asleep. As I said, youve got to do a lot better at enticing me, not exactly the best sales pitch dude, or maybe the product is just faulty and its another marketing scam Either way, Im not losing sleep over it - just over zealous home handymen making lots of noise in the morning.

Fairly obvious yeah, maybe if I hadnt had 4 hours sleep to be woken up by continuous hammering 2 meters outside my window I might have been on the ball, as I said, Im human. But still, you aknowledge you intentionally dropped a strawman, so why accuse me of it? *Oh I realise now you were taking glee in me picking apart your straw, sorry for the mistake, its just that Ive only ever seen people derided for using strawmen in discussions, I didnt think someone would be proud of it unless they are 'trolling'. Oh, I missed a post as well: I read your posts, I didnt see any kind of solution for public toilets other than 'everyone looks after themselves'. When presented with situtations in which people cant/wont look after themselves, you have given "figure out the answer youself'. Not exactly what I would call a solution. Paying someone to clean the toilets is a solution. Hey, I just thought of it myself!

Ah, some actual info, wow! Now I feel like talking. Ok, so taking your word, it wasnt in place at the time, and was instilled later. So how many of your 21 million do you think immigrated in this short period? A lot of us were born here too, so we are not immigrants. Law is law, a flawed law is still law. You accuse me of dropping strawmen, buts thats all your little '21 million illegal immigrants' was. Nothing stemming from Mabo retrospectively makes me an illegal immigrant by law. Yes I should have realised you were being a dick, but Im human, sometimes I bite.

Maybe coz wiki is right? Every other source I see says the same stuff, and once again, you dont have anything alternative to offer. My straws? Youre a fucking idiot dude. I give up. You win.

lol my discrimination When the first of them arrived there was no-one here. "Modern applications of the term terra nullius stem from 16th and 17th century doctrines describing land that was unclaimed by a sovereign state recognized by European powers." You are talking legality, so try to stick to it.

And as I said, worked brilliantly for you so far. Its not about summarising, its about being able to use the info in a usefull way. I present you with a first example of a simple problem and rather than giving an answer, you launch into this bollocks. Great knowledge you have attained there for sure Anyone can present a problem and attack people, but can you come up with an answer? Apparently not from the evidence so far. Generally, most people tend to think of individuals like that as whingers. I dont think the aboriginees had anti immigration laws dude, youre being precious. Plus, they travelled here anyway according to the historians.

riiiiight, coz you have so great an understanding that you are unable to even relate what you have read. Torsten, restricting immigration can be written into law, but its much harder to police. We are very remote here in Australia, and while our borders are vast and people can sneak in easily, it has to be by boat or plane, which reduce the numbers to a trickle when you compare to somewhere like Europe, which is basically at the mercy of large population flows. How do you stop the migration of literally millions of people who can walk across borders?

lol one childish insult deserves another, though I did try to keep mine tounge in cheek, I even used emoticons, look! you know what you can kiss right? Think up my own solutions? Wow what an insight. Worked brilliantly for you so far hasnt it!

No you were not correct, Im white, I live in a white area, get it? Im not rich. Fucking hell, the two are not synonymous. I dont goto school, and its not the only way to educate yourself. Im talking about attitude, yes some have more barriers than others, and Im more aware of them than you realise. If a surgeon died of golden staph infection I would be very surprised given that they know how to recognise, contain and treat it. We obviously have very different experience with the hours of doctors and nurses, Ive never met a nurse who was on call 24/7. Yes I realise some people require medical and theraputic care, but what I mentioned doesnt. If someone has special medical needs, then of course they need a correctly trained professional, goes without saying. Ive also done work in nursing homes, so Im not ignorant of the situation. Of course if someone can take a much higher paying job then in all likelyhood they will, but what do you propose, paying a shoe-shiner the same as a CEO? Equality is a nice principal we strive towards, but its not a reality. You could make all material things equal and our individual differences would still come into play, some people would accumulate more social status than others. Whether it be by virtue, charisma, beauty, intelligence or whatever. We rate, we judge, and we compare everything we come into contact with, and attach different levels of value accordingly. A couple of examples of non-human delegation most would be familiar with are bees, and thanks to meerkat manor, those cute little buggers too. Also any species with a social structure that includes an alpha male, and any that have gender roles, like lions. I think if you type 'social hierarchy' and whatever animal name you can think of into google you will find examples. Not the case at all in anarchist practice hey? You mean anarchy has rules? I might be making a fool of myself to anarchists with my 'ignorance' but everyone else thinks anarchists are fools You totally miss the point of humans are animals. War for Oil and the holocaust are symptoms, not justification. Its a reality that has to be dealt with in any society. If you try to build a social system that ignores the way humans are(ie: selfish), it will fail. I did think before I posted about your lifestyle, it was a valid question, I was wondering how much you have tried to detach yourself from the society you loathe, and what steps you have taken towards your goal of a better one. Please dont be such a twat about it. If you are upset because you dont feel you can do anything, its hardly my fault. Its great to know you are so concientious with cleaning, and seemingly have been since you were able to hold a toilet scrubbing brush. Three cheers, your mum must love you to bits! Cultural evolution isnt always feel-good and pretty, and yes, slavery is a part of cultural evolution, as was its abolition by law. Im not going to apologise or feel bad for making the statement. Would I be racist too if I said that their culture had not evolved to the same technology level as the settlers? You can call me racist(you are really fishing for insults now), but I dont really give a flying fuck what you think there, as I get the feeling you will just paint me however you feel, regardless of what I say. I may live in a white area but I also live in Australia, being bigoted towards race is about as usefull as shooting myself in the foot. Besides, its not how I was raised. If Ive failed to justify my statement in any way, Im sorry, Im just totally unaware of any human culture that didnt involve hierarchy. Maybe you could enlighten me? So I take it these guys do have a proposal on how we clean public toilets? I guess if they do you must have skipped over that part anyway, or you would have posted it by now grab your toilet brushes folks, viva la revolution!

Oh yeah, I couldnt possibly be one of the cleaners I described right? The pigeon-holing is getting tiresome Yes, Im not one of the groups you are describing, Im describing my area, as an example where racism doesnt play a part, so can be removed as a factor. People who are uneducated are often that way becasue they dont want to further educate themselves. Its never too late to learn, but if you dont want to theres always a barrel-load of excuses you can give. Perhaps not. I dont think I described it as a problem, cleaning is and always will be a fact of life that has to be done on an ongoing basis. Thats just plain wrong. Anything that requires the surgeons steady hand will be done by the surgeon. Its true that nurses do the bulk of patient care, but no way in hell are they the ones who cop all the filth. And just becasue something may be sterile doesnt mean its not stomach-turning, and dealing with infection & disease is hardly working with sterility, even though its done in a sterile enviroment. And guess what, the nurses also outrank people who they get to delegate to. Strangely enough, showering and wiping someones bum and cleaning up after them doesnt require any medical training Most people get training in that every day of their lives. Its not 'dirty' tasks that are relegated, its everything that the lower worker can do, to free up the higher trained and less numerous upper echelons to do their job. The low rung workers do the bulk of the work because they make up the bulk of the workforce. Very simple. Nurses love to bitch and moan about doctors, but they have the luxury of being in less demand. Doctors work ridiculous hours that your average nurse is not subjected to, and with a much greater level of responsibility - correct treatment starts with correct diagnosis. You may not see workers who are wealthy going out to find a job helping people shower, but you may just find them looking after their own parents for example, which is what you want anyway right? Were we speaking about humans interacting with cows? No. Look at the social structures of creatures within their own species, delegation occurs. Saying 'the system needs to be overhauled' without offering any kind of insight in to how this might be accomplished isnt a whole lot of use either. If you think 'some kind of anarchism' is better than some kind of order with our current population levels, then I think you are crazy Anarchy means I shoot you in the face if you get too close to my stuff, or maybe coz I just didnt like your hair...I understand the status quo, and no Im not a fan of it, though do you put your money where your mouth is, or do you live a fairly western-developed-first-world lifestyle? I never said I was wholly satisfied with the system, Im just not satisfied at all by your arguments. Im not sure where you get the certainty to predict the future in the manner you are, but its another thing Im not in agreeance with. You like to blame capitalism, but you havent offered any kind of sane alternative. The blame lies in the way humans are. We are animals. Animals do whatever it takes to survive. Sure you can have enlightened, ethical sections of society, but we are not born that way. Yep, which is why I like to spend as much time as I can not working at all. You still seem to ignore the fact that there are many members of the public who require cleaning up after them. I bet you(like most people) probably owe your mum for quite a bit of toilet clenaing you havent wanted to do in your time, am I right? Delegation does not mean exploitation. Our entire human history has been one of delegation. I find it somewhat ludicrous that you use tribal aboriginees as an example of a society you want. They had classes and jobs within their social order just like every other human culture, they were not anarchists, they had laws. You even seemingly aknowledge their failings in gender and social issues...They may not have evolved socially to the point of enslavement, but they certainly massacred the competition where they saw fit. Sure, Ill read up, if you can actually find anything realistic for me to read. Any social structure must accept the way humans are wired from birth, not simply what we can become over time with insight and experience.

heh, not exactly. I agree that paying taxes is not scrubbing a toilet, however Im in disagreeance with your argument that taxes/rates dont constitute community responsibility. Its no different to any other public service that such payments cover. Now you have a bit of misunderstanding and a bit of supposition there. I never said anything about wealth, I dont come from a wealthy area, I come from a white area. As in, you go out, the vast majority of faces are white. My reason for mentioning that was to say I cant speak from experience in regards to racial/language barriers being a contributing factor to the people I have observed in my time. Thats fine, buts its not terribly realistic. For example, I dont want our politicians spending their time scrubbing toilets. Sure it would be funny, but its not what they are there to do. Same with a surgeon, their expertise is in high demand, I dont want them wasting time doing jobs that are not their specialty if Im on a waiting list. You think cleaning a toilet is bad, you should see someone cleaning out an absyss. How about removing foreign objects from peoples rectums every other saturday night? The stuff medical staff have to deal with is far more disgusting than human waste(which they have to deal with a lot of in the course of their work anyway). Yet medico's dont have the 'dirty' stigma attached to them in the same way that cleaners do. The filth is glossed over and the more appealing aspects romanticised: saving peoples lives, money, influence... Sanitation workers save our lives, just not directly at the operating table and as such are rarely credited. Then theres the whole spectrum of people who are not 'average' and actually require cleaning up after. Some examples are children, elderly, sick/injured, disabled, intoxicated, or just plain old fashoined pricks who like making other peoples lives more difficult. I think we do work towards a society were people can find work stimulating. However, delegation has been a part of our social structure for as long as we have had societies. If its unethical then so is pretty much all of human history, as well as the rest of the animal kingdom. With the technology, unfortunately we are hard wired competitors. If we slow down, we risk our opponents cutting our throats. The only way to do it is to convince everybody that it is for their own good, or we risk putting ourselves in a position where we no longer have the power to affect anything. Scrubbing toilets is hardly the nastiest thing you can come across in cleaning, its just that people get caught up in the whole image of it. Id rather scrub a toilet than a factory, and Im more scared of heights than poo, so window washing is out of the question. Besides, cleaning toilets can be well paid too, and I think the only people who regually enjoy the act of cleaning anything are disturbed, though if they are happy with the hours and pay then I can appreciate that they enjoy their job, as it facilitates whatever lifestyle they are chasing. Work to live not live to work...I should point out that I feel being asked to clean anything without relevant OHS observations and pay under threat of dismissal would constitue exploitation/slavery. Though not the honest jobs, and I think its probably a little insulting to think like that about toilet cleaners in general. Its not just our current system, its our whole history...capitalism is hardly to blame. Are you saying capitalism should be completely replaced? If so, with what?

You can disagree, but its a fact of life. Sure its not the same as scrubbing a toilet, but we dont clean toilets to teach lessons to people, we do it for sanitation. Ive done cleaning, I never felt stuck there or 'enslaved', and if it wasnt for the fact that I have RSI, I would do it again. Reason being, I can earn decent(&honest) money for transient work with no skills required. Compare the wage of your average cleaner to your average childcare worker for example...I dont know why you think people dont need cleaning? Do you live in a pig sty? Or does someone clean up? With more and more families expected to have both parents working, hired help in private domestic situations is on the rise. exactly. Low social 'status' doesnt mean low pay. Of course not many people are going to get super rich from cleaning, but thats the same in any industry. The higher you get, the thinner the ranks...besides, 'cleaning toilets' is just a general phrase meaning any 'shit job', and how many people really like their job anyway?